August 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Packages that load in Pharo [WAS] [Ann] RFB/VNC fully configurable by code.

by Keith Hodges

Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > Miguel created this page: > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/PackagesTestedInPharo > > so that we can add there all the packages that load (and work) ok in > Pharo. > > I trying to add some but I found a problem: there is a column called > "Package version". I have a same project (for example SqueakDBX) with > several Packages in the same monticello repository. There isn't a > version for a repository, but for a package. So, what should I do if I > have several packages? > > Best, > > Mariano > Please add your list of packages to PackagesPharo class in the Packages-Library package in squeaksource.com/Packages Keith

Aug. 13, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Extending #< to compare all numbers

by Igor Stasenko

2009/8/13 <csrabak(a)bol.com.br>: > Em 12/08/2009 19:30, Igor Stasenko < siguctua(a)gmail.com > escreveu: > >> 2009/8/12 Ken.Dickey : >> > "Schwab,Wilhelm K" >> >> Floating point is not always what it seems. >> > >> > Hence my comment that IEEE floats get "the wrong answer fast". Â I have used >> > interval math, continued fractions, and linear fractional transforms (a.k.a. >> > exact reals). Â I agree that each representation has its challenges. >> > >> > Let's talk for a second about integers. >> > >> > Â 0 = (0+0i) Â --> true >> > Â 1 = (1+0i) Â --> true >> > Â 0 < 1 Â Â Â Â Â --> true >> > Â (0+0i) < (1+0i) Â --> ?? which answer here gives me the least surprise ?? >> > >> > To put it another way >> > >> > (A = a) Â --> true >> > (B = b) Â --> true >> > (A < B) --> true >> > (a < b) Â --> ?? what do you expect to see here ?? >> > >> >> Let me extend your test a little >> >> i do expect that, if : >> >> a > >> and >> >> 0 < x >> >> then >> >> a*x < b*x > > Your "counter example" is mathematically flawed even in Real (non imaginary): > > let a = 1; b = 2 and x = -1: > do you intentionally missed the condition 0 < x? > a b*x > > So there isn't this kind of transitivity for inequality operators at all. > > [snipped] > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Aug. 12, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Extending #< to compare all numbers

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

Em 12/08/2009 19:30, Igor Stasenko < siguctua(a)gmail.com > escreveu: > 2009/8/12 Ken.Dickey : > > "Schwab,Wilhelm K" > >> Floating point is not always what it seems. > > > > Hence my comment that IEEE floats get "the wrong answer fast". I have used > > interval math, continued fractions, and linear fractional transforms (a.k.a. > > exact reals). I agree that each representation has its challenges. > > > > Let's talk for a second about integers. > > > > 0 = (0+0i) --> true > > 1 = (1+0i) --> true > > 0 < 1 --> true > > (0+0i) < (1+0i) --> ?? which answer here gives me the least surprise ?? > > > > To put it another way > > > > (A = a) --> true > > (B = b) --> true > > (A < B) --> true > > (a < b) --> ?? what do you expect to see here ?? > > > > Let me extend your test a little > > i do expect that, if : > > a > and > > 0 < x > > then > > a*x < b*x Your "counter example" is mathematically flawed even in Real (non imaginary): let a = 1; b = 2 and x = -1: a b*x So there isn't this kind of transitivity for inequality operators at all. [snipped]

Aug. 12, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] There are still problem with keyboard shortcuts in Windows

by Mariano Martinez Peck

2009/8/12 <csrabak(a)bol.com.br> > Yes I observe the same behaviour, given the corrections on the shorcuts I > made in bold [image: {#emotions_dlg.embarassed}]. > > Or being more explicit, we should open the BT [image: > {#emotions_dlg.smile}] > hahahahah sorry, now I get it. I was the copy & paste fault haha. I opened the following ticket: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1064 Best, Mariano > > Em 12/08/2009 18:09, *Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com >*escreveu: > > > > > 2009/8/12 <csrabak(a)bol.com.br<http://mce_host/compose?to=csrabak@bol.com.br> > > > >> Yes: Windws XP SP3 (32 bit), Pharo beta image last update #10413. With >> some corrections on your report below: >> > > Sorry. I didn't understand you. Did you have the same problems as I had? > >> >> >> Em 12/08/2009 17:49, *Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com<http://mce_host/compose?to=marianopeck@gmail.com>> >> * escreveu: >> >> >> Hi: this is broken since a lot of time (not new). It happens only on >> Windows I think (in Linux it works ok). >> >> I have preference duplicateAllControlAndAltKeys enabled. >> >> Browse: works ok with ctrl + b and alt + b >> Implementors: Only works with alt + m . ctrl + m doesnt work. >> Senders: works ok with alt + *n* and ctrl + *n* >> Inpect: Only works with alt + *i* . ctrl + *i* doesnt work. >> Close windows: Only works with alt + w. Ctrl + w is interpreted as >> undo (ctrl + z ) >> Undo: works ok with ctrl + z and alt + z >> Print it: works ok with ctrl + p and alt + p >> Do it: works ok with ctrl + d and alt + d >> >> In summary, there are problems with Implementors, Inspect and Close >> windows. At least, the one I tested, but there can be more. >> *This happens not only with core but also with dev, both clean image. >> >> I am waiting someone to confirm this so that to open a bug ticket. >> >> anyone? >> >> Thanks >> >> Mariano >> >> * >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<http://../../../undefined/compose?to=Pharo> >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Aug. 12, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Question about MD5

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Sorry, I forgot to say that others classes like Integer, Float and Character are already implementing the message hex. Best, Mariano On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi folks: Me and the rest of the team is developing SqueakDBX which is a > driver to talk with major databases. However, I think the most persistence > alternatives pharo has, the best. There is no better solution for every > escenario. So, I am also trying to get the PostgreSQL native driver to work > in Pharo. This package depends on Cryptography because of MD5. I know that > there were added to Pharo packages like System-Hashing-core, > System-Hashing-SHA1 and System-Hashing-MD5. However, the driver doesn't work > yet. But adding this single method: > > ByteArray>>hex > | stream | > stream _ '' writeStream. > self do: [ :each | > stream > nextPut: ('0123456789ABCDEF' at: each // 16 + 1); > nextPut: ('0123456789ABCDEF' at: each \\ 16 + 1)]. > ^ stream contents > > The driver works like a charm in Pharo without needing Cryptography > package. As far as I remember there were no MIT problem with this package. > Because of this those packages ( System-Hashing-core, System-Hashing-SHA1 > and System-Hashing-MD5) were integrated in Pharo. > > So, can I add it? > > Thanks > > Mariano >

Aug. 12, 2009

[Pharo-project] Question about MD5

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Hi folks: Me and the rest of the team is developing SqueakDBX which is a driver to talk with major databases. However, I think the most persistence alternatives pharo has, the best. There is no better solution for every escenario. So, I am also trying to get the PostgreSQL native driver to work in Pharo. This package depends on Cryptography because of MD5. I know that there were added to Pharo packages like System-Hashing-core, System-Hashing-SHA1 and System-Hashing-MD5. However, the driver doesn't work yet. But adding this single method: ByteArray>>hex | stream | stream _ '' writeStream. self do: [ :each | stream nextPut: ('0123456789ABCDEF' at: each // 16 + 1); nextPut: ('0123456789ABCDEF' at: each \\ 16 + 1)]. ^ stream contents The driver works like a charm in Pharo without needing Cryptography package. As far as I remember there were no MIT problem with this package. Because of this those packages ( System-Hashing-core, System-Hashing-SHA1 and System-Hashing-MD5) were integrated in Pharo. So, can I add it? Thanks Mariano

Aug. 12, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Extending #< to compare all numbers

by Igor Stasenko

2009/8/12 Ken.Dickey <Ken.Dickey(a)whidbey.com>: > "Schwab,Wilhelm K" <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> >> Floating point is not always what it seems. > > Hence my comment that IEEE floats get "the wrong answer fast". Â I have used > interval math, continued fractions, and linear fractional transforms (a.k.a. > exact reals). Â I agree that each representation has its challenges. > > Let's talk for a second about integers. > > Â 0 = (0+0i) Â --> true > Â 1 = (1+0i) Â --> true > Â 0 < 1 Â Â Â Â Â --> true > Â (0+0i) < (1+0i) Â --> ?? which answer here gives me the least surprise ?? > > To put it another way > > (A = a) Â --> true > (B = b) Â --> true > (A < B) --> true > (a < b) Â --> ?? what do you expect to see here ?? > Let me extend your test a little i do expect that, if : a returns true, good! 0 < x -> also returns true, good! now what about: a*x < b*x ? 1i*1i < 2i*1i ==> -1 < -2 -- what is a _least_ surprising answer of this expression? >> By extension, I argue that >> computer-represented complex numbers are not always what they seem, only >> more so. > > Agreements: computers don't do math well. Â Computers approximate math. Â We > would prefer to get the best approximations possible and be told when we are > in deep waters. > > There are math systems (e.g. using interval arithmetic) which either complain > that they can't come up with a sensible answer (all the bits are roundoff > error) or go back and recompute with higher precision numeric representations > in order to get X digits of correct precision. > > I am _not_ proposing to make Pharo into such a system. > > >> Intuition resulting from lots of exposure to mathematicians suggests that >> they consider this non-trivial but well-known. > > I don't consider "What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About > Floating-Point Arithmetic" trivial -- especially for us non-mathematician > users of numbers. [ http://docs.sun.com/source/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html ] > >> If I am reading this correctly, defining $< is making a promise we can't >> keep, or perhaps we simply should not try. > > Again, I am using unit tests as a fixed point. > > I want "if A=a and B=b and A anything else to be deeply broken. > > >> If you can find something that claims to produce a sensible ordering of >> complex numbers, please post a reference. Â For now, my sense is that such a >> thing cannot exist. > > I posted what I consider a sensible ordering which unit tests the property I > care about. Â It happens to be a total ordering (not that I really care). > > I can certainly remove Complex>>< from the code, but I deeply dislike breaking > basic logic on integers. Â I would prefer to have something more meaningful > than "mathematicians can't agree on a theoretical ordering of complex > numbers, so practical logic must fail". > > Do you really not believe that (0+0i) = 0 ?? Â Why, such numbers must be > imaginary!! Â Â ;^) > > -KenD > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Aug. 12, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] There are still problem with keyboard shortcuts in Windows

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

Aug. 12, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Complex neurotic

by Igor Stasenko

2009/8/12 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>: > Ken, > > The desired behavior appears to be that -1 sqrt raises an error regardless of the complex package; -1 asComplex sqrt works when the package is installed. Â Sig, is that a fair statement of your position? > Right. The presence of Complex numbers should not change any existing behavior of non-complex numbers. > Bill > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Ken.Dickey > Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 9:59 AM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Complex neurotic > > > St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> >> What I would love is the following: that we get a good Complex package! >> Since we can do method extensions in Smalltalk we can design a really >> nice Complex > packages with its own tests. >> We could publish for now Complex into PharoTaskForces or create a >> PharoExternalPackages or whatever. > > If you point me to the package docs, I am happy to make a package. Â Note that the Complex cuts across a number of classes [Point,Float,Number,Object]. > > Is the desired behavior that (-1 sqrt) raise and exception when the Complex package is not loaded but return 1i when loaded? > > I presume that we could simply add the hyperbolic trig functions (and some > tests) to Float? > > -KenD > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Aug. 12, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Croquet - was Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Aside from http://www.duke.edu/~julian/Cobalt/Foundational_Technology_files/logo_small… which strikes me as surpising[*] coming from Smalltalkers, I do not see them running away from Smalltalk. Could it simply be that nobody wanted a 3D OS (Croquet), and that a conferencing tool (Qwaq) seemed viable? I still think Croquet would have been more useful had the 3D rendering system been made more readily reusable, so that one could easily drop a 3D world into a windowed program vs. finding that "we're not in Kansas anymore." Retained mode 3D can be a good thing. Tweak was a mistake too. So far at least, Cobalt appears to be delivering Squeak images, so perhaps this is not a huge slap in the face. My big concern now is for the future of Cog. Any ideas? Eliot seems to be telling us we're going to have a nice Christmas, JIT wise. Here's hoping he is correct. Bill [*] the capitalization is off and there are no connections with the "brand." It is unusual, perhaps even arguably disrespectful to Smalltalk's origins. -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Marcus Denker Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:50 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Croquet - was Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc. On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K<bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: > Stef, > > I don't dispute it, but what is this about Croquet being dead? > For one, the page http://www.duke.edu/~julian/Cobalt/About.html you can read: *Croquet is no longer under active development And the http://opencroquet.org/ site seems to be not actively maintained. Last news from 2008, all about cobalt. I don't see any that anyone actually claims to be a member of the consortium, either. Not much happening in Cobalt, it seems. I actually wonder if they have anyone on the team with advanced technical knowledge about the deep inner working of Croquet or even just the Squeak parts. All very strange.... I am happy that I am not involved in it or the politics around all this. Looks all very ugly to me. Marcus > Bill > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of > StÃ©phane Ducasse > Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:22 AM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr; lenglish5(a)cox.net > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc. > > > On Aug 12, 2009, at 2:39 AM, Lawson English wrote: > >> Hey all, I'm in one of my manic brainstorming moods and whilest I'm >> working on a baby interface between Second Life and Squeak, it dawns >> on me that there is a huge potential for evangelicalism on your part >> here: >> One of hte myriad complains Second LIfe power users have is that the >> build-in programming tools are extremely limited. There are numerous >> options for plugins as with Eclipse and emacs (I believe) but they >> all run as standalone tools with no easy integration with the 3D >> virtual world experience, which is hte main reason why people bother >> to script things in SL in the first place: they have interactive >> feedback with potentialky thousands of other people. >> >> The point being that seaside runs just fine on localhost and the >> builtin SL browser works just fine with everything seaside I have >> tested. > > what do you mean by the previous sentence? > >> If Â someone wanted to entice potentially 100,000 Second LIfe users to >> install seaside, implementing a nice LSL scripting interface in a >> seaside webpage, complete with syntax coloring, databases of scripts, >> version control, etc etc, would go a long way toards convincing the >> Second Life powerusers, at least, that seaside is a worthwhile >> install. >> >> If/when I get my interface to the client-server packets proxy >> working, one could see potential for many more elaborate uses for >> squeak/ seaside and Second LIfe. > > Keep us informed it looks exciting. > >> (interop between SL and Cobalt/Croquet is left as an exercise for the >> reader ;-)) > > I thought Croquet was dead as an open-source project. > >> Anyway, if someone with a talent for writing editor code wanted to >> look at the existing external LSL scripting editors and port >> something to squeak for use on a webpage in seaside, I can almost >> promise you that squeak/seaside useage would go up by a huge, HUGE >> factor. Such a project is beyond me, personally due to my lack of >> formal education, etc., but it should be a worthy project for anyone >> wishing to promote seaside/smalltalk use. > > May be this is a nice job for helvetia. Lukas? > mixing SL in Smalltalk :) > >> Feel free to ask any questions, privately if appropriate. >> >> Lawson English LEnglish5 (at) cox [dot] net Saijanai Kuhn in Second >> Life >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- -- Marcus Denker -- denker(a)acm.org http://www.marcusdenker.de _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 12, 2009