August 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Complex number support discussion

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

It might generate an error vs. coerce, but the point is to compactly store an array of the indicated type. It's a lot like String vs. a collection of characters; both have their uses. ________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of csrabak(a)bol.com.br Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 6:07 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Complex number support discussion OK. IIUC then any Number when stored in a Array of these will be copied and coerced to the specific type, is it right? Em 14/08/2009 18:54, Schwab,Wilhelm K < bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > escreveu: Ok, but that is a somewhat extreme example. The real value of the typed array classes is to handle large arrays and often ones destined for crunching by external code. So, the numbers you describe would end up being floats, because a C based algorithm could no more write into them than Smalltalk code. With a mere 10 elements, and doing all in Smalltalk to benefit from the automatic scaling to LargeInteger, an OrderedCollection works fine. While Smalltalk generally stinks at line-by-line computation, it is GREAT for allocating memory, asking a C library to read data into a block of memory, asking another library to do an FFT, calling something else to decide when to stop an iteration, asking yet another to plot it, ... The typed arrays will stay; they are critical to FFI. But in the spirit of the current thread, note that OrderedCollection does not automatically turn itself into one of them, so you can safely/easily ignore them if you don't do this type of work. Bill ________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of csrabak(a)bol.com.br Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 4:39 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Complex number support discussion OK, I don't dispute the possible advantages of those specialized collections for certain problem domains (mainly due the need to FFI [a.k.a. "not reinvent the wheel]) and performance. BUT get a look on this: ia := IntegerArray new: 10. 1 to: 10 do: [:i | ia at: i put: (1000 raisedTo: i)] In the fourth element you'll get 'Improper store into indexable object', Smaltalk trivially promotes SmallIntegers: 1000 raisedTo: 4 -> 1000000000000 1000 class -> SmallInteger 1000000000000 class -> LargePositiveInteger If we need this raw performance and have to keep babysiting for overflow, isn't it better to have the algorithm altogether in the foreing library and just have a light wrapper class to it? After of all, we all agree that starting with the syntax Smalltalk is not really numerical oriented ;-) Em 14/08/2009 18:14, Schwab,Wilhelm K < bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > escreveu: It looks like KedamaFloatArray is doing things that belong in FloatArray. A subclass would be approrpiate if the vector operations are unusual in some way; a quick glance suggests that they are pretty reasonable and unlikely to clash with other implemetations. Re "any collection, any type," that is almost true. The typed array classes (like FloatArray) have a distinct advantage over say OrderedCollection: the garbage collector sees them as one object, which can be a big plus for performance. Think of a 1000x1000 matrix and the GC load is impressive. The other big advantage is that one has a hope of passing a FloatArray into a C FFT function (for example), but hardly a prayer of getting an external function to understand an Array full of Float instances. Does that help? Yes, there should be a WORDArray, DWORDArray, etc, and most certainly a COMPLEXArray, all aimed at large arrays (image and signal processing, etc.) and often combined with FFI for fast number crunching. Bill ________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of csrabak(a)bol.com.br Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 3:41 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Complex number support discussion Wilhelm, In adition to the consensus about Complex, I would like to add that from a Smalltalk language point of view FloatArray (and any ensuing specialized arrays, IntegerArray I can understand but can someone tell me what a heck is an KedamaFloatArray?? :-) ) are a specialization that are orthogonal to the dynamic design of Smalltalk: Any collection in Smalltalk is supposed to hold any class of objects. If I understood the Pharo principles (I'm still digesting and attempting to form a roadmap in my head) those classes should not be part of Core Pharo but part of some specialized package Em 14/08/2009 17:04, Schwab,Wilhelm K < bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > escreveu: John, That is not far from the eveolving conscensous opinion - I think we can indeed claim to have a collective desire to leave integers and floats as they are. One concern I have about your suggestion is what happens when the user loads the complex package? Does existing code break? It would given Ken's proposal. There are alternatives, and they are discussed in this fairly extensive thread. Besides, someone wanting complex numbers will look for and load a package to support them, as long as it is good code. Complex is fine as far as it goes; some FFI magic to benefit from GSL functionality would be nice. We should also have an analog to FloatArray that has complex entries; again, a wrapper onto GSL would be a nice addition. I have no power over Ken; he can build what he wants. I would l ike to see his energy directed toward creating something we can all use. I suggest a layered proposal on the wiki and up or down votes on what becomes part of Pharo. If the vote(s) split, we have benevolent dictators to sort it out. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of John McIntosh Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:49 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Complex number support discussion Why not have sqrt throw the exception and suggest that you could load the optional complex logic if you actual are working with complex numbers On 8/14/09, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Ken, > > All of us will welcome something that can do sophisticed mathematics, > provided i t does not break the base system when instal led, and has > no/limited runtime penalty when not neede d. > > Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of > Ken.Dickey > Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 10:38 AM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Complex number support discussion > > Schwab,Wilhelm K" >> A 2-10x performance hit is all the more reason why such a creation >> should be dormant unless specifically invoked - translation, no >> coercion into the controversial type. While there are uses for >> systems that are "smart" >> enough to give exact answers, most computation happens in a world of >> tolerances, with numbers that are not cherry picked for aesthetics. >> >> As somebody else (Sig perhaps) said, the behavior o f the base system >> magnitude classes should not change when a different package is loaded. >> #asComplex is the gateway through which one can tell the system that >> complex numbers are expected and desired. The more you write, the >> more it becomes clear that there also would need to be a >> #asComplexSymbolic or something to invoke behavior one might expect >> from Maple and other symbolic systems. >> >> I strongly recommend starting with a numerical approach to a "closed >> system" of complex numbers. GSL provides much of what should be >> available, and can be mapped into Pharo by FFI/Alien. The result >> would get used. If you then want to compete with Maple and >> Mathematica, t hat really should be done separately. For examle, >> there are times when I use logs to estimate the number of digits > > required to hold a number, and if the argument is negative, I goofed >> and expect an error. > > Bill, > > My apologies for mixing a personal "philosophy discussion" into the > Complex header. The Complex implementation does not suffer from the > performance hit mentioned and as I stated earlier, I have no current > desire to make Pharo into Mathematica. > > I would welcome a package which did this, however. > > -KenD > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria. fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > __________________________ _____________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- =========================================================================== John M. McIntosh Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com =========================================================================== _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr< br />http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Complex number support discussion

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

Aug. 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] SocketAddress>>printOn: - a (potentially serious) defect?

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

It was probably an expedient decision for FFT purposes. Dolphin defines a #asParameter on the corresponding class that answers the address/byte array aspect. -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of StÃ©phane Ducasse Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 5:43 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] SocketAddress>>printOn: - a (potentially serious) defect? In general I favor subtyping versus subclassing. Now I do not know the exact advantage for address to be a subclass of bytestring. Stef On Aug 14, 2009, at 9:19 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > SocketAddress>>printOn: looks like it does some questionable things, > but I am fuzzy on what exactly is happening and what should be done > about it. My thought would be that the address should have name and > number aspects, that resolving would do the respective lookups, and > that inspecting should not attempt the lookups. Do you agree? How > broken is the implementation? > > I cant' say that I am thrilled about addresses being inherited from > ByteArray - I suppose it can happily be the address and have an iv for > the name, but what if one knows the name and later wants to resolve > the number? This sounds like a job for a subclass of Object with > named variables. Anybody agree or disagree? > > Bill > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Create a changeset for an entire package?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

save your package with monticello. Create a package empty call sliceXXX and add the dirty package as dependent (one click button) and publish it. MC has good supprt for merging. On Aug 14, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Javier PimÃ¡s wrote: > It seems fixing bugs is not the only hard part... I've a bunch of > fixes for GLCanvas, and a small proposed change for the class > browser but I can't find a way to export a diff of all the changed > packages, nor a diff of an entire package nor a diff of a class so > anybody can see the changes before commiting... Do I have to file > out every class I changed? there has to some easier way. > > Thanks, > Javier. > > -- > Javier PimÃ¡s > Ciudad de Buenos Aires > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] SocketAddress>>printOn: - a (potentially serious) defect?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

In general I favor subtyping versus subclassing. Now I do not know the exact advantage for address to be a subclass of bytestring. Stef On Aug 14, 2009, at 9:19 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > SocketAddress>>printOn: looks like it does some questionable things, > but I am fuzzy on what exactly is happening and what should be done > about it. My thought would be that the address should have name and > number aspects, that resolving would do the respective lookups, and > that inspecting should not attempt the lookups. Do you agree? How > broken is the implementation? > > I cant' say that I am thrilled about addresses being inherited from > ByteArray - I suppose it can happily be the address and have an iv > for the name, but what if one knows the name and later wants to > resolve the number? This sounds like a job for a subclass of Object > with named variables. Anybody agree or disagree? > > Bill > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] #< if at first you dont succeed..

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Aug 14, 2009, at 5:38 PM, Ken.Dickey wrote: > Squeak and Pharo already have some invompatabilities (e.g. not > requiring > #initialize after #new). I do agree that dialect compatibility is a > good > thing in general. no this is the same in squeak and pharo since 3.7 Stef

Aug. 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [Fix] Call initialsPerSe in isHarvester

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Strange are you sure that you really get the latest version ? Stef On Aug 14, 2009, at 5:25 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote: > Ah sorry. I checked on google code for "initialsPerSe" and > "fullNamePerSe" and I could not find it. Moreover, I did an update > yesterday and I still had the error. > > Cheers, > Alexandre > > > On 14 Aug 2009, at 11:13, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > >> This is already fixed (see my mail from this morning regarding issue >> #1069). >> >> Cheers, >> Adrian >> >> On Aug 14, 2009, at 17:01 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >> >>> Issue #1070 >>> initialsPerSe is a deprecated method. When opening an image, a >>> deprecated error shows up. "Author uniqueInstance fullNamePerSe" >>> should be used in instead. The following .cs fixes this. >>> >>> On google code >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Alexandre >>> -- >>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Help on Polymorph [was How to build a GUI]

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

would be nice to save a script and its png. Now can you have use relationships? Stef On Aug 14, 2009, at 4:53 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>> Is DrDoc on SqueakSource? I'll take a look. >> >> Yes I would be more than happy if someone could take the lead there. >> I could embed images (UML diagram). > > It could maybe be used with Mondrian :-) > > Alexandre > > >> >> >> >>> >>> - Brian >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>>>>> So far we should invent it. >>>>>> And I totally agree with you. If people do not see the good doc >>>>>> they >>>>>> will not write good comment. >>>>>> I started to work on DrDoc a kind of package meta data to add >>>>>> documentation to a package but it got stole >>>>>> I should push that again. What would be nice is to take one >>>>>> package >>>>>> and do it well as an example. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It think it should be possible to write documentation at the >>>>>> package level. So developpers have a place where they can write >>>>>> an >>>>>> overview of their package. When we click on a package, >>>>>> documentation should be displayed by default or easily. >>>>> >>>>> Yes! Here is a post I made in April of 2003: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> The biggest frustration with using comments is that there is no >>>>>> good >>>>>> "starting place" for a given class category. For example, go >>>>>> browse >>>>>> the Seaside classes and categories and figure out where one >>>>>> should >>>>>> start. You can repeat this exercise for any number of >>>>>> categories. I >>>>>> propose that we we add a documentation attribute to the >>>>>> PackageInfo >>>>>> stuff, so there is a category level documentation spot, with >>>>>> links >>>>> to >>>>>> the appropriate class comments. >>>>> >>>>>> Any thoughts? >>>>> I didn't get any response, and I sent a similar type of thought to >>>>> Stef recently, but he's so busy I don't even know if he read my >>>>> email :) >>>>> >>>>> - Brian >>>>>> >>>>>> In the rubygems world, it is a common practice to write >>>>>> documentation in a README file which is displayed by RDoc on >>>>>> startup page (github works the same way). It seems to me that >>>>>> there's the same level of comment between Ruby class/methods and >>>>>> Pharo. The documentation at the package level may be the >>>>>> difference. >>>>>> >>>>>> Python has a real documentation effort.Each release come with its >>>>>> up to date documentation. It's a release criteria. Python shares >>>>>> some similarities with Pharo as they both have "batteries >>>>>> included". May be there should have a process to contribute to a >>>>>> centralized Pharo documentation which can be accessed within the >>>>>> IDE. >>>>>> >>>>>> Laurent. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo- >>>>>> project >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo- >>>>> project >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Create a changeset for an entire package?

by Alexandre Bergel

Why not just to fileOut the package ? Alexandre On 14 Aug 2009, at 17:12, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > Javier: You can use the change sorter which is in right button -> > tools -> change sorter. > > There, in any of the panes you can see that there is a unnamed > changeset with all of your changes. Then you can create a new > changeset with right button -> "new changeset" and put a name: > "XXXXchange". Then you can move from right to left or left to right > any of the changes you want to include. Once you have in your > changes all you want, right button on the changeset -> fileout. And > in the directory where the image is, you will have a XXXXchange.cs. > > Does this help? > > Best, > > Mariano > > 2009/8/14 Javier PimÃ¡s <elpochodelagente(a)gmail.com> > It seems fixing bugs is not the only hard part... I've a bunch of > fixes for GLCanvas, and a small proposed change for the class > browser but I can't find a way to export a diff of all the changed > packages, nor a diff of an entire package nor a diff of a class so > anybody can see the changes before commiting... Do I have to file > out every class I changed? there has to some easier way. > > Thanks, > Javier. > > -- > Javier PimÃ¡s > Ciudad de Buenos Aires > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Aug. 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Complex number support discussion

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

That's fine, but there are times when one wants to treat float arrays are big vectors, doing scalar multiplication and vector arithmetic; the plugin looks useful for such things, but most of it should just be extra behavior in FloatArray. -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of John M McIntosh Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 4:59 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Complex number support discussion Kedama - A massively-parallel tile-scriptable particle system http://www.is.titech.ac.jp/~ohshima/squeak/kedama/ It's part of eToys, if ship the KedamaPlugin and KedamaPlugin2 plugins with the macintosh carbon VM *cough* if etoys is being eradicated then KedamaFloatArray should be on a list somewhere On 14-Aug-09, at 1:41 PM, csrabak(a)bol.com.br wrote: > can someone tell me what a heck is an KedamaFloatArray?? > -- = = = ======================================================================== John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com = = = ======================================================================== _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 14, 2009