August 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Networking - how much experience/testing ishappening?

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Thanks for the suggestion, but it choked trying to get one entry. Just for laughs, I might try replacing the DelayWaitTimeout with a similar gizmo I made for Dolphin. It took a while, but I finally got it through SIF and into MC with all of its parts intact - I hope =:0 *If* there is something ugly with the timeouts, it might help. I suspect however that it is a combination of the problem Andreas noted along with doing the evaluations on the UI thread. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Carlos Crosetti Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 6:49 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Networking - how much experience/testing ishappening? With regards of your question about LDAP, if your expected result set is over 50 entries, add an or: block to check for result code == 4 in LDAP-Core class LDAPResult checkForExceptions (resultCode = 0 or: [resultCode = 4] or: [resultCode = 5] or: [resultCode = 6]) ifFalse: [ | ex | ex := LDAPException newWithCode: resultCode. ex signal: (errorMessage ifEmpty:[ex messageText]) ] -----Mensaje original----- De: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr]En nombre de Schwab,Wilhelm K Enviado el: Viernes, 14 de Agosto de 2009 03:35 p.m. Para: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Asunto: [Pharo-project] Networking - how much experience/testing ishappening? Hello all, Are any of you doing extensive networking with Pharo? IMHO, Seaside connections to a local copy of apache does not really count, since it won't be as likely to see dropped connections and other challenges. I ask because I have LDAPlayer talking to UF's server, and had Pharo lock up something awful. This was over a pre-production vpn connection from home, and on a not-really-supported 64 bit system tricked into running the 32 bit client. I'm not sure how stable all of that is. Still, I had to dust off the end-process button; cmd-. brought up debuggers, but those were unresponsive too. Andreas Raab mentioned a snag with LDAPlayer not reacting well to network errors, so that might have been the problem. Still, I can see the ldap worker thread going nuts, but the UI thread??? If it's a fluke, fine; if this happens in real use, we have a problem. Bill _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 269.21.6/1323 - Release Date: 10/03/2008 11:07 a.m. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 15, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Complex number support discussion

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

Aug. 15, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Complex number support discussion

by John McIntosh

Yes but we usually don't do explicit casting Like 2 asFloat * 3.0 We could but where does the implicit type conversion lie? On 8/14/09, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: > John, > > If I may be so presumptuous, the answer is to have people use #asComplex > when they want complex results. -2 sqrt throws an error; -2 asComplex sqrt > gives the complex (imaginary) result. Then we break no old code, we offer > useful new features with minimal effort required to invoke them. > > Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of John M > McIntosh > Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 4:55 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Complex number support discussion > > > On 14-Aug-09, at 1:04 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> John, >> >> That is not far from the eveolving conscensous opinion - I think we >> can indeed claim to have a collective desire to leave integers and >> floats as they are. One concern I have about your suggestion is what >> happens when the user loads the complex package? Does existing code >> break? It would given Ken's proposal. There are alternatives, and >> they are discussed in this fairly extensive thread. >> >> Besides, someone wanting complex numbers will look for and load a >> package to support them, as long as it is good code. Complex is fine >> as far as it goes; some FFI magic to benefit from GSL functionality >> would be nice. We should also have an analog to FloatArray that has >> complex entries; again, a wrapper onto GSL would be a nice addition. >> >> I have no power over Ken; he can build what he wants. I would like to >> see his energy directed toward creating something we can all use. I >> suggest a layered proposal on the wiki and up or down votes on what >> becomes part of Pharo. If the vote(s) split, we have benevolent >> dictators to sort it out. >> >> Bill > > Ah, yes well I think I lost the 0.2 = (1/2) argument, so anything goes. > > I think the choice is either numbers + complex work as expected, or you just > offer number then offer to load the complex logic as soon as someone wants > -2 sqrt. > > Obviously the problem here is that for a vast range of programmers if you > offer up -2 sqrt by default and it does not throw an exception they will be > confused. Some of them likely have NO idea what a complex number is. > > Random thoughts. > > No-doubt there are abuses of math to string where people assume you have an > integer like thing versus a complex number string. > > > -- > = > = > = > ======================================================================== > John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: > squeaker68882 > Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com > = > = > = > ======================================================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- =========================================================================== John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com ===========================================================================

Aug. 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Complex number support discussion

by Ken.Dickey

> I have no power over Ken; he can build what he wants. I would like to see > his energy directed toward creating something we can all use. I suggest a > layered proposal on the wiki and up or down votes on what becomes part of > Pharo. If the vote(s) split, we have benevolent dictators to sort it out. Bill, Many thanks. I had missed the reference to "wiki" on http://pharo-project.org/community and did not see mention on http://pharo-project.org/documentation/faq or http://pharo-project.org/about/organization Up to now I had seen zero references to proper process. In particular, I would have followed http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/HowToContribute rather than dumping code here. I'll be happy to use the wiki for a proposal. Other contributor newbie suggestions welcomed. If nobody tells me I don't know. Thanks again, -KenD

Aug. 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Networking - how much experience/testing ishappening?

by Carlos Crosetti

With regards of your question about LDAP, if your expected result set is over 50 entries, add an or: block to check for result code == 4 in LDAP-Core class LDAPResult checkForExceptions (resultCode = 0 or: [resultCode = 4] or: [resultCode = 5] or: [resultCode = 6]) ifFalse: [ | ex | ex := LDAPException newWithCode: resultCode. ex signal: (errorMessage ifEmpty:[ex messageText]) ] -----Mensaje original----- De: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr]En nombre de Schwab,Wilhelm K Enviado el: Viernes, 14 de Agosto de 2009 03:35 p.m. Para: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Asunto: [Pharo-project] Networking - how much experience/testing ishappening? Hello all, Are any of you doing extensive networking with Pharo? IMHO, Seaside connections to a local copy of apache does not really count, since it won't be as likely to see dropped connections and other challenges. I ask because I have LDAPlayer talking to UF's server, and had Pharo lock up something awful. This was over a pre-production vpn connection from home, and on a not-really-supported 64 bit system tricked into running the 32 bit client. I'm not sure how stable all of that is. Still, I had to dust off the end-process button; cmd-. brought up debuggers, but those were unresponsive too. Andreas Raab mentioned a snag with LDAPlayer not reacting well to network errors, so that might have been the problem. Still, I can see the ldap worker thread going nuts, but the UI thread??? If it's a fluke, fine; if this happens in real use, we have a problem. Bill _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 269.21.6/1323 - Release Date: 10/03/2008 11:07 a.m.

Aug. 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] ORM for Pharo -- Â½ OFF

by Mariano Martinez Peck

2009/8/14 <csrabak(a)bol.com.br> > > Mariano, > > I agree (and I myself have been on the Research side getting answers > similar to those ones) in fact I'll add another item to your list: > > -- They have an "architectural steering committee" that dictates use of > some RDBS > > I've seen this even requiring some ERP used different database engine thas > suggested by supplier. . . > > So if we want to compete with enterprise applications we need to get into > some Enterprise: > > We're still thinkering with printing in Pharo (and this is PITA when > attempting to be platform agnostic), so no Report Generator still, no matter > how well you connect to a RDBS, any slightly above trivial example CRUD > application will need this support. > > Our present set of widgets is sleek but still not as comprehensive as the > other competing approaches, and we still have not created enough baseline to > have an "echo system" so third parties can augment them as it happens now > with Java, .Net and happened (and still as legacy updates) in Delphi and VB. > > So if the goal is to reach those enterprise trench we have to find some > company that would profit of having [Pharo] Smalltalk as a *primary*language to customize or augment their system, as today (say as sake of > example, SAP has ABAP but with Netweaver is going Java, and they competitors > similar path). > > Let's think about this: historically some (comercial) Smalltalks allowed > via OLE (a.k.a. COM, etc.) to access Microsoft Office features and do things > similar as VB (in fact even Tcl and Python allow that), but what is the > "productivity" of programmer that finds a tutorial or an example in VB and > has to "translate" it to Smalltalk? > > As today can we enumerate what would be an advantage of doing something in > Pharo instead of some "mainstream" language just to do some GUI painting > CRUD application? > I don't know if I understand you. The idea and goal behind Pharo is to have the open, free, clean and robust smalltalk that we were missing for years for commercial applications. At least that's my idea of Pharo. It must be a platform and a base where you can create tools in it and with both of them create real applications. In my opinion Pharo shouldn't be associated with a particular UI (web or desktop) neither to a persistence strategy. Pharo must be the base of all that. So then you can have differents alternatives: For UI's you can have PolyMorph and the UI Builder. For Web you can have Seaside and Aida/Web. But pharo is not coupled with any of them. You will then choose the solutions that best feets your needs. In summary, I would love to use Pharo as platform to build enterprise and commercial applications. No matter how do I persist or display my objects. Best, Mariano > again my 0.01999.... > > Regards, > > -- > > Cesar Rabak > > > > Em 14/08/2009 16:57, *Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com >*escreveu: > > > > > 2009/8/14 <csrabak(a)bol.com.br<http://mce_host/compose?to=csrabak@bol.com.br> > > > >> Esteban, >> >> I'm comenting this on *philosophical* grounds. >> >> I understand the efforts to have SqueakDBX and other ORM in Pharo are >> motivated by Seaside and other "production" initiatives so, again, my food >> for thought is more an intellectual contribution which I see as useful for >> Pharo as project: >> >> I don't see Pharo *any time soon*Â® having all the toolset to be able to >> compete in the CRUDÂ¹ realm with more streamlined tools and besides, not >> matter how much theoretical work has been done on ORM, the "impedance >> mismatch" is still there, >> > Hi! I am agree with you about the "impedance mismatch". I think that if I > am free to choose a persistence strategy I would use an OODB. However, if we > are talking about real enterprise application (not a simple webpage) being > able to choose the persistence strategy is practically impossible. We did a > survey last year and the results were that most of the times you cannot > choose. Of course, the client has a lot of reasons: > > - The client already has a RDBMS > - They had paid for it and have the license (sometimes) > - They want a company's support. The only company here is Gemstone. > - RDBMS has history and it is an standard > - They have knowledge about it > - Interaction with other system (even legazy systems) > - They are afraid of using another persistence strategy > - They want to use SQL > - They have DBAs > - The persistence is difficult to negotiate > > So. In my opinion, if Pharo wants to be used really as a platform for > enterprise applications (competing to java, .NET, etc), it must have a > good relational solution. Of course, when you are able to choose, you can go > for another approach like OODB. > > Best, > > Mariano > >> a recent and practicall account of this (for Squeak) can be found in >> >> http://onsmalltalk.com/simple-image-based-persistence-in-squeak >> >> also, AIDA/Web has been able to run only storing thing in the image! See >> >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.smalltalk/browse_thread/thread/d3b… >> >> Since we'll increase the educational efforts to spread Pharo, I think that >> as technology we should to recover a bit of Smalltalk technology and be >> first more Object Oriented and then see if ORM still is so needed. >> >> my 0.0199999.... >> >> -- >> >> Cesar Rabak >> >> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Create,_read,_update_and_delete >> Em 14/08/2009 16:14, *Esteban A. Maringolo < emaringolo(a)gmail.com<http://mce_host/compose?to=emaringolo@gmail.com>> >> * escreveu: >> >> >> My prototype is getting less proto, and I found out it doesn't have >> complex relations, and the system is going to perform faster if I have >> tables for most of it. >> >> What are the choices I have for doing ORM in Pharo? >> >> Â¿Does GLORP work? Â¿Any other options? >> I don't have a strong preference for the RDBMS engine, it can be >> anything (free), being it MySQL, PostgreSQL or Sql Server Express. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Esteban A. Maringolo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<http://../../../undefined/compose?to=Pharo> >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<http://../../../undefined/compose?to=Pharo> >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Aug. 14, 2009

[Pharo-project] #< if at first you dont succeed..

by Ken.Dickey

On Aug 14, 2009, at 5:38 PM, Ken.Dickey wrote: > Squeak and Pharo already have some incompatabilities (e.g. not > requiring #initialize after #new). I do agree that dialect > compatibility is a good thing in general. St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > no this is the same in squeak and pharo since 3.7 Right. In this case, Squeak and Pharo together differ from Smalltalk-80, not from each other. Badly phrased. Sorry. -KenD

Aug. 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Completion works inside comments -- bug or feature?

by Chris Cunningham

It is nice at times that this happens. If you have a comment in the method showing what it does (examples), the autocomplete is kind of nice while building those.

Aug. 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Question about Socket

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Mariano, I might have walke into precisely the situation I was describing: maybe the IDE is blocking, not the socket. If so, I still end up wondering why cmd-. is of so little help?? Bill ________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Schwab,Wilhelm K Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 2:27 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Question about Socket Mariano, Sockets _should not_block the the entire image, but I have just seen it happen with LDAPlayer; I am not yet sure what to make of it. That said, there should be a way to block the UI until something happens, but that should not be done from the sockets layer, as too many things benefit from mutliple conversations happening in the background. On the blocking side, see references to gemstone interfacing, where the server response is integral to the ide responses, so blocking is considered essential. Bill ________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:44 PM To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list; Pharo Development Subject: [Pharo-project] Question about Socket Hi folks: I am preparing my SqueakDBX talk for ESUG and I am doing some comparisons between a database driver with an external library trough FFI and a native driver. I know FFI locks the VM until the function it is being invoked, finishes. But I don't know what happens with Sockets. Do sockets lock the hole VM until you obtain a response? Thanks for any light in this field. Best, Mariano

Aug. 14, 2009

[Pharo-project] Completion works inside comments -- bug or feature?

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

Aug. 14, 2009