August 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Aug 28, 2009, at 2:23 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Hello all, > > I am doing some more porting and hitting some trouble spots - no > real surprise that they exist. However, I am struck by a strong > belief that Dolphin has a lot of things right, and startup and > shutdown is very high on that list. this is clear that dolphin people always value code quality over hyper innovation. If dolphin would work on mac and (if it was going open source except of been killed) I would use it daily. > > No offense to Nicolas, who has been quite helpful, let's consider a > somewhat extrmeme example. Suppose a server is using an ORB to do > SSL protected communications with various servers and clients, some > Seaside work, and has a few database connections open. Are we > content with having to close and reopen all of that just to save the > image? I submit that this is a flawed design. Worst case, the vm > knows when it loads an image and could tell the image that it > happened. From there, a lot of extra work could be dumped. > > Nicolas is quite right that step (2) below must be done carefully, > but it has been handled nicely in Dolphin by registering potential > offenders in the startup triggers and doing the cleanup at that > time. External resources are released on a shutdown trigger, but > not image save. This will strike again with native windows, as the > current approach would (stop me if this is a fallacy) have > everything released and reopened on image save, which would be very > inefficient. > > I have code that expects a class called SessionManager, and I am > seriously thinking of creating it. It would trigger events for > starup and shutdown, help with logging, etc. Can it be donw without > hacking the vm? > > Bill > > > > =========================================================== > > [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? > Nicolas Cellier nicolas.cellier.aka.nice at gmail.com > Thu Jul 16 22:48:34 CEST 2009 > > * Previous message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a > clue to performance??? > * Next message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue > to performance??? > * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > > Current policy is to cleanup before saving, and reconnect after saving > as if a fresh startup occured > As you seem to suggest, a possible alternative without using fork > would be to: > 1) distinguish whether this is a newly restarted image (primSnapshot > returning true or false...) > 2) perform all the clean-ups at startup if newly restarted image > 3) rely on the process exit() to perform required resource clean-up in > case we quit (or let a self aboutToQuit do some) > > Step 2) would deserve great care, any unprotected access to an > uninitialized pointer of the old image would crash or trash memory... > > Nicolas > > 2009/7/16 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab at anest.ufl.edu>: >> Nicolas, >> >> One thing I forgot to mention: thread safety??? IIRC, Dolphin >> triggers startup events, and all external resources clear pointers >> then (though they will release on shutdown, not image saving) to >> force a lazy connection. >> >> I see why, absent help from the vm, the image does not know when it >> starts and stops. What I do not get is why the vm does not tell >> it. If it did, I _think_ we could clean all of this up. Sometimes >> the truth hurts though, so please find any faults in my logic (or >> lack thereof). >> >> Bill > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Latest dev image on Mac

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Why do you udpate a dev image? It is well-know that you should not update from a dev. We will remove the menu. Do you have the same problem with a core? Stef > I updated the lastest dev image, save as another name, and it freezes. > Alt-. does not help in waking it up. > > Alexandre > > > On 27 Aug 2009, at 18:59, Ramiro Diaz Trepat wrote: > >> Hi guys, >> If I download the lastest dev image, run an update, save & quit and >> then restart. The image never starts again. >> I am running on a mac with the latest vm. >> There is no problem at all with any image where I did not load the >> latest updates. >> Cheers >> >> r. >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] changes necessary to make merging of squeak trunk in pharo possible

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

I will check that because in my version I cannot selectively install a change and gary told me that he was planning to do that. Stef On Aug 27, 2009, at 11:15 PM, Nicolas Cellier wrote: > Don't know if it fixes all cases but I can open the diff for Kernel > and Collections at least. > > 2009/8/27 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >> Thanks!!! >> I want that. >> Did you fix the nil set .... error in Patch.... >> >> Stef >> >> On Aug 27, 2009, at 10:52 PM, Nicolas Cellier wrote: >> >>> Name: Polymorph-Tools-Diff-nice.25 >>> Author: nice >>> Time: 27 August 2009, 10:50:11 pm >>> UUID: c934f7e5-c68f-42c7-9e31-d61b12bfa16f >>> Ancestors: Polymorph-Tools-Diff-stephane_ducasse.24 >>> >>> Made two changes to be able to merge squeak trunk in pharo >>> Please review and update Polymorph >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown

by Igor Stasenko

2009/8/28 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>: > Sig, > > I must disagree, because there is more to what I am saying than simply to skip cleanup (I am saying to do it in two parts, each at the correct time and only at the correct time). Â Further, the current behavior has nothing to do with shutdown - it is done pre and post snapshot. Â Dolphin has it right; we should borrow the idea. > Oh, yes, i mistaken. I by shutdown i meant snapshot. Its just from current Squeak POV shutdown is always performed before snapshot. > Bill > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Igor Stasenko > Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 8:26 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown > > As a compromise, i suggest to introduce 2 different shutdown modes: > Â - with cleanup > Â - without cleanup > > and then reflect it in UI, or > in system preferences. > Case closed :) > > 2009/8/28 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>: >> I am not so sure it will not be a big deal. Â With an open system, there is no reason not to use development tools to make changes on production machines, and saving the image would be part of that process; every occurance would clobber all sockets, all web users, all database connections, etc. Â It's something that just feels wrong in capital letters, and we are trying to fix things. >> >> It definitely smells bad from a scientific computation perspective where external connections and saving the image are very common. >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of >> Miguel Enrique CobÃ¡ Martinez >> Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:57 PM >> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown >> >> El jue, 27-08-2009 a las 20:23 -0400, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribiÃ³: >>> Hello all, >>> >>> I am doing some more porting and hitting some trouble spots - no real surprise that they exist. Â However, I am struck by a strong belief that Dolphin has a lot of things right, and startup and shutdown is very high on that list. >>> >>> No offense to Nicolas, who has been quite helpful, let's consider a somewhat extrmeme example. Â Suppose a server is using an ORB to do SSL protected communications with various servers and clients, some Seaside work, and has a few database connections open. Â Are we content with having to close and reopen all of that just to save the image? Â I submit that this is a flawed design. Â Worst case, the vm knows when it loads an image and could tell the image that it happened. Â From there, a lot of extra work could be dumped. >>> >>> Nicolas is quite right that step (2) below must be done carefully, but it has been handled nicely in Dolphin by registering potential offenders in the startup triggers and doing the cleanup at that time. Â External resources are released on a shutdown trigger, but not image save. Â This will strike again with native windows, as the current approach would (stop me if this is a fallacy) have everything released and reopened on image save, which would be very inefficient. >>> >>> I have code that expects a class called SessionManager, and I am seriously thinking of creating it. Â It would trigger events for starup and shutdown, help with logging, etc. Â Can it be donw without hacking the vm? >>> >> >> Just a question, what is the big deal with this, as you most often save on a development environment and not in a production environment. And as the number of saves on a production environment are seldom, it isn't a problem I think. >> In the dev enviroment you are pointing to dev services and you have few open conections/whatever so that is not a big deal either. >> >> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> >>> =========================================================== >>> >>> [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? >>> Nicolas Cellier nicolas.cellier.aka.nice at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 >>> 22:48:34 CEST 2009 >>> >>> Â Â * Previous message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? >>> Â Â * Next message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? >>> Â Â * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] >>> >>> Current policy is to cleanup before saving, and reconnect after >>> saving as if a fresh startup occured As you seem to suggest, a >>> possible alternative without using fork would be to: >>> 1) distinguish whether this is a newly restarted image (primSnapshot >>> returning true or false...) >>> 2) perform all the clean-ups at startup if newly restarted image >>> 3) rely on the process exit() to perform required resource clean-up >>> in case we quit (or let a self aboutToQuit do some) >>> >>> Step 2) would deserve great care, any unprotected access to an >>> uninitialized pointer of the old image would crash or trash memory... >>> >>> Nicolas >>> >>> 2009/7/16 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab at anest.ufl.edu>: >>> > Nicolas, >>> > >>> > One thing I forgot to mention: thread safety??? Â IIRC, Dolphin triggers startup events, and all external resources clear pointers then (though they will release on shutdown, not image saving) to force a lazy connection. >>> > >>> > I see why, absent help from the vm, the image does not know when it starts and stops. Â What I do not get is why the vm does not tell it. Â If it did, I _think_ we could clean all of this up. Â Sometimes the truth hurts though, so please find any faults in my logic (or lack thereof). >>> > >>> > Bill >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> -- >> Miguel CobÃ¡ >> http://miguel.leugim.com.mx >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Aug. 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown

by Miguel Enrique CobÃ¡ Martinez

El jue, 27-08-2009 a las 21:55 -0400, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribiÃ³: > Sig, > > I must disagree, because there is more to what I am saying than simply to skip cleanup (I am saying to do it in two parts, each at the correct time and only at the correct time). Further, the current behavior has nothing to do with shutdown - it is done pre and post snapshot. Dolphin has it right; we should borrow the idea. > > Bill Well, I suppose that there is a compelling reason to have it. Just one more scenario that I think that will be common, not that there won't be others that really need a solution like you describe: In a big web app, for example, you'll deploy a lot of PharoCore images (or better yet, PharoKernel as the one Pavel announced today) that manage each of them a lot of sessions of the users. The important data to save each time is outside the image, maybe on magma, a rdbs or in the file system, for files uploaded to the webapp. In case an error show up, I should have to modify all the images and save them all. Better is to patch the PharoCore template image and to restart them all to get a consistent fix on all the images at almost the same time. If I were to do it by hand, and saving each image, this will mean maybe hours to finish. In a case like this, it is more practical to restart the server with a minimal programed and announced maintenance window. But, as Stef likes to say: code, code, code! I have never used Dolphin. You have more experience with it and maybe you could port the code or implement a brand new based on that ideas and contribute it to Pharo. I will be glad to test it, of course. Cheers > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Igor Stasenko > Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 8:26 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown > > As a compromise, i suggest to introduce 2 different shutdown modes: > - with cleanup > - without cleanup > > and then reflect it in UI, or > in system preferences. > Case closed :) > > 2009/8/28 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>: > > I am not so sure it will not be a big deal. With an open system, there is no reason not to use development tools to make changes on production machines, and saving the image would be part of that process; every occurance would clobber all sockets, all web users, all database connections, etc. It's something that just feels wrong in capital letters, and we are trying to fix things. > > > > It definitely smells bad from a scientific computation perspective where external connections and saving the image are very common. > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of > > Miguel Enrique CobÃ¡ Martinez > > Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:57 PM > > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown > > > > El jue, 27-08-2009 a las 20:23 -0400, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribiÃ³: > >> Hello all, > >> > >> I am doing some more porting and hitting some trouble spots - no real surprise that they exist. However, I am struck by a strong belief that Dolphin has a lot of things right, and startup and shutdown is very high on that list. > >> > >> No offense to Nicolas, who has been quite helpful, let's consider a somewhat extrmeme example. Suppose a server is using an ORB to do SSL protected communications with various servers and clients, some Seaside work, and has a few database connections open. Are we content with having to close and reopen all of that just to save the image? I submit that this is a flawed design. Worst case, the vm knows when it loads an image and could tell the image that it happened. From there, a lot of extra work could be dumped. > >> > >> Nicolas is quite right that step (2) below must be done carefully, but it has been handled nicely in Dolphin by registering potential offenders in the startup triggers and doing the cleanup at that time. External resources are released on a shutdown trigger, but not image save. This will strike again with native windows, as the current approach would (stop me if this is a fallacy) have everything released and reopened on image save, which would be very inefficient. > >> > >> I have code that expects a class called SessionManager, and I am seriously thinking of creating it. It would trigger events for starup and shutdown, help with logging, etc. Can it be donw without hacking the vm? > >> > > > > Just a question, what is the big deal with this, as you most often save on a development environment and not in a production environment. And as the number of saves on a production environment are seldom, it isn't a problem I think. > > In the dev enviroment you are pointing to dev services and you have few open conections/whatever so that is not a big deal either. > > > > > >> Bill > >> > >> > >> > >> =========================================================== > >> > >> [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? > >> Nicolas Cellier nicolas.cellier.aka.nice at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 > >> 22:48:34 CEST 2009 > >> > >> * Previous message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? > >> * Next message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? > >> * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > >> > >> Current policy is to cleanup before saving, and reconnect after > >> saving as if a fresh startup occured As you seem to suggest, a > >> possible alternative without using fork would be to: > >> 1) distinguish whether this is a newly restarted image (primSnapshot > >> returning true or false...) > >> 2) perform all the clean-ups at startup if newly restarted image > >> 3) rely on the process exit() to perform required resource clean-up > >> in case we quit (or let a self aboutToQuit do some) > >> > >> Step 2) would deserve great care, any unprotected access to an > >> uninitialized pointer of the old image would crash or trash memory... > >> > >> Nicolas > >> > >> 2009/7/16 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab at anest.ufl.edu>: > >> > Nicolas, > >> > > >> > One thing I forgot to mention: thread safety??? IIRC, Dolphin triggers startup events, and all external resources clear pointers then (though they will release on shutdown, not image saving) to force a lazy connection. > >> > > >> > I see why, absent help from the vm, the image does not know when it starts and stops. What I do not get is why the vm does not tell it. If it did, I _think_ we could clean all of this up. Sometimes the truth hurts though, so please find any faults in my logic (or lack thereof). > >> > > >> > Bill > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > > Miguel CobÃ¡ > > http://miguel.leugim.com.mx > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Miguel CobÃ¡ http://miguel.leugim.com.mx

Aug. 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Sig, I must disagree, because there is more to what I am saying than simply to skip cleanup (I am saying to do it in two parts, each at the correct time and only at the correct time). Further, the current behavior has nothing to do with shutdown - it is done pre and post snapshot. Dolphin has it right; we should borrow the idea. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Igor Stasenko Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 8:26 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown As a compromise, i suggest to introduce 2 different shutdown modes: - with cleanup - without cleanup and then reflect it in UI, or in system preferences. Case closed :) 2009/8/28 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>: > I am not so sure it will not be a big deal. Â With an open system, there is no reason not to use development tools to make changes on production machines, and saving the image would be part of that process; every occurance would clobber all sockets, all web users, all database connections, etc. Â It's something that just feels wrong in capital letters, and we are trying to fix things. > > It definitely smells bad from a scientific computation perspective where external connections and saving the image are very common. > > Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of > Miguel Enrique CobÃ¡ Martinez > Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:57 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown > > El jue, 27-08-2009 a las 20:23 -0400, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribiÃ³: >> Hello all, >> >> I am doing some more porting and hitting some trouble spots - no real surprise that they exist. Â However, I am struck by a strong belief that Dolphin has a lot of things right, and startup and shutdown is very high on that list. >> >> No offense to Nicolas, who has been quite helpful, let's consider a somewhat extrmeme example. Â Suppose a server is using an ORB to do SSL protected communications with various servers and clients, some Seaside work, and has a few database connections open. Â Are we content with having to close and reopen all of that just to save the image? Â I submit that this is a flawed design. Â Worst case, the vm knows when it loads an image and could tell the image that it happened. Â From there, a lot of extra work could be dumped. >> >> Nicolas is quite right that step (2) below must be done carefully, but it has been handled nicely in Dolphin by registering potential offenders in the startup triggers and doing the cleanup at that time. Â External resources are released on a shutdown trigger, but not image save. Â This will strike again with native windows, as the current approach would (stop me if this is a fallacy) have everything released and reopened on image save, which would be very inefficient. >> >> I have code that expects a class called SessionManager, and I am seriously thinking of creating it. Â It would trigger events for starup and shutdown, help with logging, etc. Â Can it be donw without hacking the vm? >> > > Just a question, what is the big deal with this, as you most often save on a development environment and not in a production environment. And as the number of saves on a production environment are seldom, it isn't a problem I think. > In the dev enviroment you are pointing to dev services and you have few open conections/whatever so that is not a big deal either. > > >> Bill >> >> >> >> =========================================================== >> >> [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? >> Nicolas Cellier nicolas.cellier.aka.nice at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 >> 22:48:34 CEST 2009 >> >> Â Â * Previous message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? >> Â Â * Next message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? >> Â Â * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] >> >> Current policy is to cleanup before saving, and reconnect after >> saving as if a fresh startup occured As you seem to suggest, a >> possible alternative without using fork would be to: >> 1) distinguish whether this is a newly restarted image (primSnapshot >> returning true or false...) >> 2) perform all the clean-ups at startup if newly restarted image >> 3) rely on the process exit() to perform required resource clean-up >> in case we quit (or let a self aboutToQuit do some) >> >> Step 2) would deserve great care, any unprotected access to an >> uninitialized pointer of the old image would crash or trash memory... >> >> Nicolas >> >> 2009/7/16 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab at anest.ufl.edu>: >> > Nicolas, >> > >> > One thing I forgot to mention: thread safety??? Â IIRC, Dolphin triggers startup events, and all external resources clear pointers then (though they will release on shutdown, not image saving) to force a lazy connection. >> > >> > I see why, absent help from the vm, the image does not know when it starts and stops. Â What I do not get is why the vm does not tell it. Â If it did, I _think_ we could clean all of this up. Â Sometimes the truth hurts though, so please find any faults in my logic (or lack thereof). >> > >> > Bill >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- > Miguel CobÃ¡ > http://miguel.leugim.com.mx > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown

by Igor Stasenko

As a compromise, i suggest to introduce 2 different shutdown modes: - with cleanup - without cleanup and then reflect it in UI, or in system preferences. Case closed :) 2009/8/28 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>: > I am not so sure it will not be a big deal. Â With an open system, there is no reason not to use development tools to make changes on production machines, and saving the image would be part of that process; every occurance would clobber all sockets, all web users, all database connections, etc. Â It's something that just feels wrong in capital letters, and we are trying to fix things. > > It definitely smells bad from a scientific computation perspective where external connections and saving the image are very common. > > Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Miguel Enrique CobÃ¡ Martinez > Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:57 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown > > El jue, 27-08-2009 a las 20:23 -0400, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribiÃ³: >> Hello all, >> >> I am doing some more porting and hitting some trouble spots - no real surprise that they exist. Â However, I am struck by a strong belief that Dolphin has a lot of things right, and startup and shutdown is very high on that list. >> >> No offense to Nicolas, who has been quite helpful, let's consider a somewhat extrmeme example. Â Suppose a server is using an ORB to do SSL protected communications with various servers and clients, some Seaside work, and has a few database connections open. Â Are we content with having to close and reopen all of that just to save the image? Â I submit that this is a flawed design. Â Worst case, the vm knows when it loads an image and could tell the image that it happened. Â From there, a lot of extra work could be dumped. >> >> Nicolas is quite right that step (2) below must be done carefully, but it has been handled nicely in Dolphin by registering potential offenders in the startup triggers and doing the cleanup at that time. Â External resources are released on a shutdown trigger, but not image save. Â This will strike again with native windows, as the current approach would (stop me if this is a fallacy) have everything released and reopened on image save, which would be very inefficient. >> >> I have code that expects a class called SessionManager, and I am seriously thinking of creating it. Â It would trigger events for starup and shutdown, help with logging, etc. Â Can it be donw without hacking the vm? >> > > Just a question, what is the big deal with this, as you most often save on a development environment and not in a production environment. And as the number of saves on a production environment are seldom, it isn't a problem I think. > In the dev enviroment you are pointing to dev services and you have few open conections/whatever so that is not a big deal either. > > >> Bill >> >> >> >> =========================================================== >> >> [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? >> Nicolas Cellier nicolas.cellier.aka.nice at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 >> 22:48:34 CEST 2009 >> >> Â Â * Previous message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? >> Â Â * Next message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? >> Â Â * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] >> >> Current policy is to cleanup before saving, and reconnect after saving >> as if a fresh startup occured As you seem to suggest, a possible >> alternative without using fork would be to: >> 1) distinguish whether this is a newly restarted image (primSnapshot >> returning true or false...) >> 2) perform all the clean-ups at startup if newly restarted image >> 3) rely on the process exit() to perform required resource clean-up in >> case we quit (or let a self aboutToQuit do some) >> >> Step 2) would deserve great care, any unprotected access to an >> uninitialized pointer of the old image would crash or trash memory... >> >> Nicolas >> >> 2009/7/16 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab at anest.ufl.edu>: >> > Nicolas, >> > >> > One thing I forgot to mention: thread safety??? Â IIRC, Dolphin triggers startup events, and all external resources clear pointers then (though they will release on shutdown, not image saving) to force a lazy connection. >> > >> > I see why, absent help from the vm, the image does not know when it starts and stops. Â What I do not get is why the vm does not tell it. Â If it did, I _think_ we could clean all of this up. Â Sometimes the truth hurts though, so please find any faults in my logic (or lack thereof). >> > >> > Bill >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- > Miguel CobÃ¡ > http://miguel.leugim.com.mx > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Aug. 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

I am not so sure it will not be a big deal. With an open system, there is no reason not to use development tools to make changes on production machines, and saving the image would be part of that process; every occurance would clobber all sockets, all web users, all database connections, etc. It's something that just feels wrong in capital letters, and we are trying to fix things. It definitely smells bad from a scientific computation perspective where external connections and saving the image are very common. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Miguel Enrique CobÃ¡ Martinez Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:57 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown El jue, 27-08-2009 a las 20:23 -0400, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribiÃ³: > Hello all, > > I am doing some more porting and hitting some trouble spots - no real surprise that they exist. However, I am struck by a strong belief that Dolphin has a lot of things right, and startup and shutdown is very high on that list. > > No offense to Nicolas, who has been quite helpful, let's consider a somewhat extrmeme example. Suppose a server is using an ORB to do SSL protected communications with various servers and clients, some Seaside work, and has a few database connections open. Are we content with having to close and reopen all of that just to save the image? I submit that this is a flawed design. Worst case, the vm knows when it loads an image and could tell the image that it happened. From there, a lot of extra work could be dumped. > > Nicolas is quite right that step (2) below must be done carefully, but it has been handled nicely in Dolphin by registering potential offenders in the startup triggers and doing the cleanup at that time. External resources are released on a shutdown trigger, but not image save. This will strike again with native windows, as the current approach would (stop me if this is a fallacy) have everything released and reopened on image save, which would be very inefficient. > > I have code that expects a class called SessionManager, and I am seriously thinking of creating it. It would trigger events for starup and shutdown, help with logging, etc. Can it be donw without hacking the vm? > Just a question, what is the big deal with this, as you most often save on a development environment and not in a production environment. And as the number of saves on a production environment are seldom, it isn't a problem I think. In the dev enviroment you are pointing to dev services and you have few open conections/whatever so that is not a big deal either. > Bill > > > > =========================================================== > > [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? > Nicolas Cellier nicolas.cellier.aka.nice at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 > 22:48:34 CEST 2009 > > * Previous message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? > * Next message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? > * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > > Current policy is to cleanup before saving, and reconnect after saving > as if a fresh startup occured As you seem to suggest, a possible > alternative without using fork would be to: > 1) distinguish whether this is a newly restarted image (primSnapshot > returning true or false...) > 2) perform all the clean-ups at startup if newly restarted image > 3) rely on the process exit() to perform required resource clean-up in > case we quit (or let a self aboutToQuit do some) > > Step 2) would deserve great care, any unprotected access to an > uninitialized pointer of the old image would crash or trash memory... > > Nicolas > > 2009/7/16 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab at anest.ufl.edu>: > > Nicolas, > > > > One thing I forgot to mention: thread safety??? IIRC, Dolphin triggers startup events, and all external resources clear pointers then (though they will release on shutdown, not image saving) to force a lazy connection. > > > > I see why, absent help from the vm, the image does not know when it starts and stops. What I do not get is why the vm does not tell it. If it did, I _think_ we could clean all of this up. Sometimes the truth hurts though, so please find any faults in my logic (or lack thereof). > > > > Bill > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Miguel CobÃ¡ http://miguel.leugim.com.mx _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown

by Miguel Enrique CobÃ¡ Martinez

El jue, 27-08-2009 a las 20:23 -0400, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribiÃ³: > Hello all, > > I am doing some more porting and hitting some trouble spots - no real surprise that they exist. However, I am struck by a strong belief that Dolphin has a lot of things right, and startup and shutdown is very high on that list. > > No offense to Nicolas, who has been quite helpful, let's consider a somewhat extrmeme example. Suppose a server is using an ORB to do SSL protected communications with various servers and clients, some Seaside work, and has a few database connections open. Are we content with having to close and reopen all of that just to save the image? I submit that this is a flawed design. Worst case, the vm knows when it loads an image and could tell the image that it happened. From there, a lot of extra work could be dumped. > > Nicolas is quite right that step (2) below must be done carefully, but it has been handled nicely in Dolphin by registering potential offenders in the startup triggers and doing the cleanup at that time. External resources are released on a shutdown trigger, but not image save. This will strike again with native windows, as the current approach would (stop me if this is a fallacy) have everything released and reopened on image save, which would be very inefficient. > > I have code that expects a class called SessionManager, and I am seriously thinking of creating it. It would trigger events for starup and shutdown, help with logging, etc. Can it be donw without hacking the vm? > Just a question, what is the big deal with this, as you most often save on a development environment and not in a production environment. And as the number of saves on a production environment are seldom, it isn't a problem I think. In the dev enviroment you are pointing to dev services and you have few open conections/whatever so that is not a big deal either. > Bill > > > > =========================================================== > > [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? > Nicolas Cellier nicolas.cellier.aka.nice at gmail.com > Thu Jul 16 22:48:34 CEST 2009 > > * Previous message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? > * Next message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? > * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > > Current policy is to cleanup before saving, and reconnect after saving > as if a fresh startup occured > As you seem to suggest, a possible alternative without using fork would be to: > 1) distinguish whether this is a newly restarted image (primSnapshot > returning true or false...) > 2) perform all the clean-ups at startup if newly restarted image > 3) rely on the process exit() to perform required resource clean-up in > case we quit (or let a self aboutToQuit do some) > > Step 2) would deserve great care, any unprotected access to an > uninitialized pointer of the old image would crash or trash memory... > > Nicolas > > 2009/7/16 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab at anest.ufl.edu>: > > Nicolas, > > > > One thing I forgot to mention: thread safety??? IIRC, Dolphin triggers startup events, and all external resources clear pointers then (though they will release on shutdown, not image saving) to force a lazy connection. > > > > I see why, absent help from the vm, the image does not know when it starts and stops. What I do not get is why the vm does not tell it. If it did, I _think_ we could clean all of this up. Sometimes the truth hurts though, so please find any faults in my logic (or lack thereof). > > > > Bill > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Miguel CobÃ¡ http://miguel.leugim.com.mx

Aug. 28, 2009

[Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Hello all, I am doing some more porting and hitting some trouble spots - no real surprise that they exist. However, I am struck by a strong belief that Dolphin has a lot of things right, and startup and shutdown is very high on that list. No offense to Nicolas, who has been quite helpful, let's consider a somewhat extrmeme example. Suppose a server is using an ORB to do SSL protected communications with various servers and clients, some Seaside work, and has a few database connections open. Are we content with having to close and reopen all of that just to save the image? I submit that this is a flawed design. Worst case, the vm knows when it loads an image and could tell the image that it happened. From there, a lot of extra work could be dumped. Nicolas is quite right that step (2) below must be done carefully, but it has been handled nicely in Dolphin by registering potential offenders in the startup triggers and doing the cleanup at that time. External resources are released on a shutdown trigger, but not image save. This will strike again with native windows, as the current approach would (stop me if this is a fallacy) have everything released and reopened on image save, which would be very inefficient. I have code that expects a class called SessionManager, and I am seriously thinking of creating it. It would trigger events for starup and shutdown, help with logging, etc. Can it be donw without hacking the vm? Bill =========================================================== [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? Nicolas Cellier nicolas.cellier.aka.nice at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 22:48:34 CEST 2009 * Previous message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? * Next message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Current policy is to cleanup before saving, and reconnect after saving as if a fresh startup occured As you seem to suggest, a possible alternative without using fork would be to: 1) distinguish whether this is a newly restarted image (primSnapshot returning true or false...) 2) perform all the clean-ups at startup if newly restarted image 3) rely on the process exit() to perform required resource clean-up in case we quit (or let a self aboutToQuit do some) Step 2) would deserve great care, any unprotected access to an uninitialized pointer of the old image would crash or trash memory... Nicolas 2009/7/16 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab at anest.ufl.edu>: > Nicolas, > > One thing I forgot to mention: thread safety??? IIRC, Dolphin triggers startup events, and all external resources clear pointers then (though they will release on shutdown, not image saving) to force a lazy connection. > > I see why, absent help from the vm, the image does not know when it starts and stops. What I do not get is why the vm does not tell it. If it did, I _think_ we could clean all of this up. Sometimes the truth hurts though, so please find any faults in my logic (or lack thereof). > > Bill

Aug. 28, 2009