July 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

+ aLargeInteger :) -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Michael Rueger Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 4:10 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean)) Lukas Renggli wrote: >> OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a >> 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same as >> in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I found that >> Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task. > > Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph. > > This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the owning > package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the package for > every method is removed the sender browser opens almost instantly. Then we should remove or at least temporarily disable it. The user doesn't care why something is slow. michael _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

by Michael Rueger

Lukas Renggli wrote: >> OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a >> 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same >> as in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I found >> that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task. > > Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph. > > This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the > owning package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the > package for every method is removed the sender browser opens almost > instantly. Then we should remove or at least temporarily disable it. The user doesn't care why something is slow. michael

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

by Lukas Renggli

> OUCH!!!! Â That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same as in Pharo) and Â had a prompt reply. Â After doing that, I found that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task. Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph. This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the owning package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the package for every method is removed the sender browser opens almost instantly. Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Squeak Forks Popularity & Trends Estimate

by Robert Peters

Dear David and Stephane, Thank you for your replies. David, you make excellent points. I did not know about VW being free and will try it out. And you're certainly right that however much Smalltalk web resources are smaller than Python's, it is certainly a much better environment for learning Smalltalk now than it was 20 years ago. And Stephane, I say 'your' and not 'our' because if my wife found out I got involved in yet another cause on the web, she'd kill me! And also, I can't code in Smalltalk, so I'm very much a spectator. But I did not intend for my original post to be negative. I absolutely believe Pharo is 100% on the right track, and a critical component in a potential Smalltalk resurgence. So I'll keep waiting, and when 1.0 comes out, I'll give it a try again. Kind regards, Robert David Mitchell-6 wrote: > > Sorry, I think my intent got lost in my joy for nostalgia. > > There was a big Smalltalk party but it ended. Then it was quiet for a > while (but the party was underground). > > Now, the party is getting started again. > > You may just be a little early coming to the second party. > > Things you have today that I didn't have in 1994: > You can download (Pharo, GNU Smalltalk, Squeak and use it however you > like). > There are two free, open source, and maintained cross dialect web > frameworks: Seaside and AidaWeb (we wrote our own and it paled in > comparison) > You can use Gemstone for free for small sites. > You can use Magma as a free OODB. > You can use VW for non-commercial (including to learn Smalltalk). > The Squeak list exists. (All I had was comp.lang.smalltalk). > Many good Smalltalk blogs. > Almost all of the old Smalltalk books are available free as PDF. > Many of the new Smalltalk books are available free and from Lulu. > Most of the classics can still be bought used on Amazon. > James Roberson's smalltalk podcasts. > James Robertson's nearly daily Smalltalk screencasts. > Randal Schwartz promoting Smalltalk > squeak irc channel > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Robert Peters<thewinterlion(a)gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> Yes, you're quite right, David. Â But my point is that my particular >> situation >> is representative of everyone who is not currently in the Smalltalk >> community. Â I posted because I want the Smalltalk community to grow, but >> it's peak has passed. Â There are no SUGs, there is no Smalltalk magazine, >> there are no web resources. Â And the Smalltalk community must grow if it >> is >> to be taken seriously. >> >> I cannot go back in time and learn it in the 'peak'. Â I must learn it >> now, >> with the resources that are available now. Â These resources are lacking. >> >> If a person was equally proficient in Smalltalk and Python, which would >> they >> produce better code faster in? >> >> I suspect the answer may be Smalltalk, because of its one, beautiful, >> paradigm. Â But I, and millions like me, will never know. >> >> I'm hoping Pharo will be the first steps in changing that. >> >> Kind regards, >> Robert >> >> >> David Mitchell-6 wrote: >>> >>> I would insert the phrase "for you" several times into your post. That >>> is, is Python a better language (for me) at this time. Or, was Python >>> an easier language (for me) to learn than Smalltalk. >>> >>> If you come late enough to the party (and the party is large enough), >>> you can Google for all your answers. Smalltalk's popularity spiked in >>> the early 90s (until Java popped its bubble). You couldn't Google for >>> Smalltalk answers then largely due to the lack of Google ;-). >>> >>> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://n2.nabble.com/Squeak-Forks-Popularity---Trends-Estimate-tp3211130p32… >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Squeak-Forks-Popularity---Trends-Estimate-tp3211130p32… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same as in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I found that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task. The good news is that _hopefully_ profiling will reveal a clue as to where the time goes. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of John M McIntosh Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 2:12 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean)) As an example here I took the Pharo0.1-10371dev09.07.1 image and looked for all senders of '==' That takes *SO* long you wonder what is going on, well the fans spin up on my macbook pro, keyboard gets hot.. Actually I'm not sure if it ever comes back. If I then do look for all implementors of '==' , there is one, and ask for all senders via the menu, that takes a few seconds but then clicking on a sender, which then shows the list of senders for that sender takes well seconds, minutes? Sorry completely un-usable. On 9-Jul-09, at 11:47 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > [ToolSet default browse: ClassBuilder selector: nil] timeToRun > > in the latest Pharo image (dev09.07.2) on a MacBook Pro: > > OBPackageBrowser: 1474ms > OBSytemBrowser: 529ms > Browser: 376ms > > So, its not per se OmniBrowser, but the OB *package* browser that is > terribly slow. > > Adrian = = = ======================================================================== John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com = = = ======================================================================== _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Squeak Forks Popularity & Trends Estimate

by David Mitchell

Sorry, I think my intent got lost in my joy for nostalgia. There was a big Smalltalk party but it ended. Then it was quiet for a while (but the party was underground). Now, the party is getting started again. You may just be a little early coming to the second party. Things you have today that I didn't have in 1994: You can download (Pharo, GNU Smalltalk, Squeak and use it however you like). There are two free, open source, and maintained cross dialect web frameworks: Seaside and AidaWeb (we wrote our own and it paled in comparison) You can use Gemstone for free for small sites. You can use Magma as a free OODB. You can use VW for non-commercial (including to learn Smalltalk). The Squeak list exists. (All I had was comp.lang.smalltalk). Many good Smalltalk blogs. Almost all of the old Smalltalk books are available free as PDF. Many of the new Smalltalk books are available free and from Lulu. Most of the classics can still be bought used on Amazon. James Roberson's smalltalk podcasts. James Robertson's nearly daily Smalltalk screencasts. Randal Schwartz promoting Smalltalk squeak irc channel On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Robert Peters<thewinterlion(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Yes, you're quite right, David. Â But my point is that my particular situation > is representative of everyone who is not currently in the Smalltalk > community. Â I posted because I want the Smalltalk community to grow, but > it's peak has passed. Â There are no SUGs, there is no Smalltalk magazine, > there are no web resources. Â And the Smalltalk community must grow if it is > to be taken seriously. > > I cannot go back in time and learn it in the 'peak'. Â I must learn it now, > with the resources that are available now. Â These resources are lacking. > > If a person was equally proficient in Smalltalk and Python, which would they > produce better code faster in? > > I suspect the answer may be Smalltalk, because of its one, beautiful, > paradigm. Â But I, and millions like me, will never know. > > I'm hoping Pharo will be the first steps in changing that. > > Kind regards, > Robert > > > David Mitchell-6 wrote: >> >> I would insert the phrase "for you" several times into your post. That >> is, is Python a better language (for me) at this time. Or, was Python >> an easier language (for me) to learn than Smalltalk. >> >> If you come late enough to the party (and the party is large enough), >> you can Google for all your answers. Smalltalk's popularity spiked in >> the early 90s (until Java popped its bubble). You couldn't Google for >> Smalltalk answers then largely due to the lack of Google ;-). >> >> > > -- > View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Squeak-Forks-Popularity---Trends-Estimate-tp3211130p32… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo Sprint at ESUG

by Mariano Martinez Peck

I don't know if I have the experience and knowledge to fix some bugs, but as I will be there I would love to have a Pharo sprint and help as much as possible. I think camp is a good place for it. Stef: you wanted to say sunday 30 ? Best, Mariano On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 3:47 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>wrote: > Hi all > > some of us want to organise a pharo sprint at ESUG and I think it > would be great to kill > bug entry. The sunday would be cool. > > Stef > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

by John M McIntosh

As an example here I took the Pharo0.1-10371dev09.07.1 image and looked for all senders of '==' That takes *SO* long you wonder what is going on, well the fans spin up on my macbook pro, keyboard gets hot.. Actually I'm not sure if it ever comes back. If I then do look for all implementors of '==' , there is one, and ask for all senders via the menu, that takes a few seconds but then clicking on a sender, which then shows the list of senders for that sender takes well seconds, minutes? Sorry completely un-usable. On 9-Jul-09, at 11:47 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > [ToolSet default browse: ClassBuilder selector: nil] timeToRun > > in the latest Pharo image (dev09.07.2) on a MacBook Pro: > > OBPackageBrowser: 1474ms > OBSytemBrowser: 529ms > Browser: 376ms > > So, its not per se OmniBrowser, but the OB *package* browser that is > terribly slow. > > Adrian = = = ======================================================================== John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com = = = ========================================================================

July 9, 2009

[Pharo-project] Pharo Sprint at ESUG

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi all some of us want to organise a pharo sprint at ESUG and I think it would be great to kill bug entry. The sunday would be cool. Stef

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

by Adrian Lienhard

[ToolSet default browse: ClassBuilder selector: nil] timeToRun in the latest Pharo image (dev09.07.2) on a MacBook Pro: OBPackageBrowser: 1474ms OBSytemBrowser: 529ms Browser: 376ms So, its not per se OmniBrowser, but the OB *package* browser that is terribly slow. Adrian On Jul 9, 2009, at 20:32 , StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > here 308 ms > heheheh :) > so we are not that bad. > Stef > > On Jul 9, 2009, at 6:22 PM, Damien Cassou wrote: > >> [ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 9, 2009