July 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo Sprint at ESUG

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

yes On Jul 9, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > I don't know if I have the experience and knowledge to fix some > bugs, but as I will be there I would love to have a Pharo sprint and > help as much as possible. > > I think camp is a good place for it. Stef: you wanted to say sunday > 30 ? > > Best, > > Mariano > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 3:47 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > > wrote: > Hi all > > some of us want to organise a pharo sprint at ESUG and I think it > would be great to kill > bug entry. The sunday would be cool. > > Stef > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

by Adrian Lienhard

Good question... I was also puzzled because changing the ToolSet does not change the browser. try SystemBrowser askForDefault or directly do SystemBrowser default: Browser Cheers, Adrian On Jul 9, 2009, at 23:41 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Dumb question: what part of ToolSet askForDefault makes the actual > change to the default? My real question is what would I do to > script setting the standard tool set as the default? > > Bill > > > ________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr > ] On Behalf Of Gary Chambers > Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 12:30 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook- > and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo > MITlicenseclean)) > > Ouch! Wonder why... > (2.8 Quad core here, Vista 64bit SP1, 4GB ram, Pharo-core-10371, > Arial 10 fonts via FreeType *StandardToolSet*, image backgound > (clownfish)). > > 260ms is best time recorded. > > Regards, Gary > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Benoit St-Jean<mailto:bstjean@yahoo.com> > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr > > > Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 6:05 PM > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook- > and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo > MITlicenseclean)) > > If that helps, I get 7316ms !! > > Pharo0.1 > Latest update: #10373 > > On Windows XP, SP3 > Dual Core, 3GHz, 2Gb RAM > > Vanilla Pharo image with FFI & ODBC packages loaded. > > > ----------------- > Benoit St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > Blog: lamneth.wordpress.com > A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero. > (Albert Einstein) > > > ________________________________ > From: Gary Chambers <gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com<mailto:gazzaguru2@btinternet.com > >> > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2009 1:01:00 PM > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and > look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] > Pharo MITlicenseclean)) > > As I mentioned on squeak-dev... > With the StandardToolSet I get 300ms or less... > > Regards, Gary > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Damien Cassou" <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com<mailto:damien.cassou@gmail.com > >> > To: "Pharo Development" <pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr > >>; "David > RÃ¶thlisberger" <roethlis(a)iam.unibe.ch<mailto:roethlis@iam.unibe.ch>> > Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:22 PM > Subject: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and > look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo > MITlicenseclean)) > > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Andreas Raab <andreas.raab(a)gmx.de<mailto:andreas.raab@gmx.de>> >> Date: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM >> Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The >> future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Pharo MIT >> licenseclean)) >> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list >> <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org<mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org >> >> >> >> >> >> [ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun. >> >> On my box this takes 506 msecs in Squeak 3.10, using Pharo it's at >> 5020 msecs. That's 10x slower. >> >> >> -- >> Damien Cassou >> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st >> >> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them >> popular by not having them." James Iry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr >> > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr > > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > ________________________________ > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ca/iotg_search.jpg]Yahoo! > Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your > favourite sites. Download it now! <http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com/> > > ________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] byte codes, parse-tree walking, etc.

by David T. Lewis

On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 04:44:16PM -0400, Cameron Sanders wrote: > > On Jul 8, 2009, at 3:43 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > ... > > VMMaker is _smalltalk_ package which implements such dispatch, and > > then translated to C & compiled to get a VM binary. > > Look for VMMaker package at squeaksource.com > ... > > Awesome, thanks for the leads! > > -Cam > The VMMaker package is really a fundamental part of the original Squeak, but is now split out and maintained as a separate package. For background, read the "Back to the Future" paper as well as some of Tim Rowledge's writings (Stef's "free books" web site should have most of this, also search the Squeak swiki). You were mentioning Slang translation in your question - this is sort of a "late optimization" in which the interpreter, which is written in Smalltalk and which can be run in Smalltalk, is translated to C and linked to external support code for performance. But the VM itself, including the bytecode interpreter, is written in Smalltalk, and you can run it in Smalltalk (using InterpreterSimulator), and use the debugger to look at the actual bytecode interpretation as it happens. Dave

July 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 940: (13/10) = 1.3 returns false

by Hernan Wilkinson

I would not change the meaning of ==, that is "the same object". Right now 100 factorial == 100 factorial is false, and should stay the same. On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 3:33 PM, John M McIntosh < johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> wrote: > > On 9-Jul-09, at 5:58 AM, Hernan Wilkinson wrote: > > > So, Stef, what do we do? :-) > > I think we have discussed very interesting things is this thread. My > > conclusions are: > > > 4) Go back to how things were > > +1 > > Frankly I think you could reuse '==' for the *exact* compare between > two items in the Number hierarchy > and leave '=' as the yes they are *equal* but not the same.... > > then you could really rummage about and fix/explain/justify why > > 29347921734912734927349279273499274 == > (29347921734912734927349279273499274-1+1) is false and explain why > in the same manner as saying (1/10) == 0.1 is false, & resolve why 0.1 > == (0.1-0.01+0.01) is false yet 10 == (10-1+1) is true. > > And yes people do things like use '==' for numbers, for the strangest > reasons. > > -- > = > = > = > ======================================================================== > John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: > squeaker68882 > Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com > = > = > = > ======================================================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

July 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 940: (13/10) = 1.3 returns false

by Andres Valloud

Regarding the == instead of =, the only thing I can think of is identity checking of small integers, where in VW you get some improvement by using == instead of =. IIRC, I measured 25% faster in a loop that just did == as opposed to =. But, of course, using that kind of code is asking for trouble. John M McIntosh wrote: > On 9-Jul-09, at 5:58 AM, Hernan Wilkinson wrote: > > >> So, Stef, what do we do? :-) >> I think we have discussed very interesting things is this thread. My >> conclusions are: >> > > >> 4) Go back to how things were >> > > +1 > > Frankly I think you could reuse '==' for the *exact* compare between > two items in the Number hierarchy > and leave '=' as the yes they are *equal* but not the same.... > > then you could really rummage about and fix/explain/justify why > > 29347921734912734927349279273499274 == > (29347921734912734927349279273499274-1+1) is false and explain why > in the same manner as saying (1/10) == 0.1 is false, & resolve why 0.1 > == (0.1-0.01+0.01) is false yet 10 == (10-1+1) is true. > > And yes people do things like use '==' for numbers, for the strangest > reasons. > > -- > = > = > = > ======================================================================== > John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: > squeaker68882 > Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com > = > = > = > ======================================================================== > > > > > >

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 940: (13/10) = 1.3 returns false

by Nicolas Cellier

2009/7/9 John M McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com>: > > On 9-Jul-09, at 5:58 AM, Hernan Wilkinson wrote: > >> So, Stef, what do we do? :-) >> I think we have discussed very interesting things is this thread. My >> conclusions are: > >> 4) Go back to how things were > > +1 > > Frankly I think you could reuse '==' for the *exact* compare between > two items in the Number hierarchy > and leave '=' Â as the yes they are *equal* but not the same.... > > then you could really rummage about and fix/explain/justify why > > 29347921734912734927349279273499274 == > (29347921734912734927349279273499274-1+1) Â is false and explain why > in the same manner as saying (1/10) == 0.1 is false, & resolve why 0.1 > == (0.1-0.01+0.01) is false yet 10 == (10-1+1) Â is true. > The reason why I would stick to = meaning exactly and some other symbol meaning approximately, is because I expect = to be transitive, while I can very well understand that approximatelyEqual: is not. I would also avoid == because some IdentitySet and the like would start to hate Numbers... unfortunately ~= means different... =~= or using some unicode symbol... (latex \approx) > And yes people do things like use '==' for numbers, for the strangest > reasons. > Yes, most because one thought it would be faster (?), but not only... An example is the hackish pattern for enumerating objects that would not work anymore :( like http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=2788 > -- > = > = > = > ======================================================================== > John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Â Twitter: > squeaker68882 > Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. Â http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com > = > = > = > ======================================================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] problem mixing Traits and Inheritance

by Alexandre Bergel

As we agree some times ago, the method > atEnd > self explicitRequirement. should not be defined. Alexandre On 8 Jul 2009, at 11:08, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: > Hi, > > Here's my problem : > - I have the class NSCollectionStream which define ( for example ) > #atEnd > - I have the class NSSubclassOfCollectionStream ( which is a suclass > of NSCollectionStream). > > When I use a trait in NSSubclassOfCollectionStream that required the > method #atEnd, the defintion in NSCollectionStream is not used and > the method #atEnd is overridden with : > atEnd > self explicitRequirement. > > I think we should take care about definitions in superclass, no? > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 940: (13/10) = 1.3 returns false

by Nicolas Cellier

2009/7/9 David Goehrig <dave(a)nexttolast.com>: > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 3:49 AM, Nicolas Cellier > <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I want elementary users to know that the diagonal length of the square >> has to be approximated for practical means. >> sqrt(2) is not a rational, this is independent of any implementation. > > True, but when you deal with a numbers that are irrational, uncomputable, or > the rest you > expect them not to be represented cleanly. Â What throws people for a loop is > when you > do something like type the following in a python interpreter: >>>> 0.2 > 0.20000000000000001 > These sorts of simple rounding errors, do weird things when added with > iterative processes. I guess this happens because they want a guaranty the number will be read back the same. Java do it too AFAIK. Smalltalk has an absPrintExactlyOn:base: which is not used (it should be!) but is far better if I remember and avoid these extra decimals (it comes from scheme). > What most elementary school users expect is something more along the lines > of > floating point math that is BCD encoded. Â Intel has had BCD math operators > in their > chips since the 8 bit days. Â It only takes 1 bytes to represent .2 or .1 in > 4bit packed > BCD. Â With the exception of numbers that cannot be represented in decimal, > the BCD > scheme directly mimics what most non-computer science/ non-computer math > people > expect :) > My point is to have a good floating point model underneath, as >> >> consistent as possible mathematically, reducing unecessary rounding >> errors introduced at image level, and reflecting state of the art, be >> it the imperfect IEEE 754 > > > And I'm not arguing that at all. Â I think IEEE754 support is necessary, > there is too much useful > data encoded in that format. Â All I am saying is that it is not necessarily > the correct design > decision to make it the default representation of numbers. Â There's a lot to > be argued in > favor of Ocaml and SML NJ's approach of having entirely separate operators > for IEEE754 > math. Instead of + you use +. instead of - you use -. etc. Â SML NJ doesn't > even let you test > equality on floats. Â Really the sticky bit is do you go to this extent, or > do you decide your > representation of numbers require encoding suffixes as well. Maybe that's worth a try, but this is independent of my change and the same in every Smalltalk dialect. This part of the discussion is a good spin off of the change. My plan would be to differentiate the literals (1.3e or ~1.3, I don't care), but keep the same selectors +,-,*,/ This would enable algorithms to work with both kind of numbers (at your own risks). Eventually, yes, additional selectors could be added meaning exact addition or inexact addition, and those would cause DNU if you don't provide the right number. For paranoid only :) >> >> Â Even st80 did not have ScaledDecimal. > > st80 didn't have IEEE754 floats in it either technically. Â (IEEE754 wasn't > published until 1985). > >> >> The next step will be to change ScaledDecimal ugly specifications, >> because no one will be satisfied very long with 0.5s*0.5s -> 0.3s. > > Â I agree here as well. Â There's no good reason that should be the case, > other than an > excessive attention to significant digits :) > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://blog.dloh.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Call: identifying issues relevant for 1.0

by Michael Roberts

thanks, i would definitely like to see the core tools maintained and the debugger is a fun project. I just wonder that since I spend most of the time in the core image, i am not helping maintaining Pharo itself, just the core bit. I hope that our toolset (the super-toolset across both images) as it matures becomes more modular and well factored. I guess i'm just concerned about maintaining two debuggers, since it's non-trivial. Perhaps one could be a super or subset of the other? I don't know. cheers, Mike

July 9, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Dumb question: what part of ToolSet askForDefault makes the actual change to the default? My real question is what would I do to script setting the standard tool set as the default? Bill ________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Gary Chambers Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 12:30 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean)) Ouch! Wonder why... (2.8 Quad core here, Vista 64bit SP1, 4GB ram, Pharo-core-10371, Arial 10 fonts via FreeType *StandardToolSet*, image backgound (clownfish)). 260ms is best time recorded. Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: Benoit St-Jean<mailto:bstjean@yahoo.com> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean)) If that helps, I get 7316ms !! Pharo0.1 Latest update: #10373 On Windows XP, SP3 Dual Core, 3GHz, 2Gb RAM Vanilla Pharo image with FFI & ODBC packages loaded. ----------------- Benoit St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Blog: lamneth.wordpress.com A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero. (Albert Einstein) ________________________________ From: Gary Chambers <gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com<mailto:gazzaguru2@btinternet.com>> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2009 1:01:00 PM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean)) As I mentioned on squeak-dev... With the StandardToolSet I get 300ms or less... Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Cassou" <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com<mailto:damien.cassou@gmail.com>> To: "Pharo Development" <pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr>>; "David RÃ¶thlisberger" <roethlis(a)iam.unibe.ch<mailto:roethlis@iam.unibe.ch>> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:22 PM Subject: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean)) > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Andreas Raab <andreas.raab(a)gmx.de<mailto:andreas.raab@gmx.de>> > Date: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM > Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The > future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Pharo MIT > licenseclean)) > To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list > <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org<mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org>> > > > > [ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun. > > On my box this takes 506 msecs in Squeak 3.10, using Pharo it's at > 5020 msecs. That's 10x slower. > > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them > popular by not having them." James Iry > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ________________________________ [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ca/iotg_search.jpg]Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now! <http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com/> ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 9, 2009