July 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

by Keith Hodges

Henrik Sperre Johansen wrote: > On 09.07.2009 23:03, Lukas Renggli wrote: >>> OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same as in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I found that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task. >>> >> >> Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph. >> >> This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the owning >> package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the package for >> every method is removed the sender browser opens almost instantly. >> >> Lukas >> >> I don't know if this helps but in MC1.5 Matthew sped up the PackageInfo routines for scanning the image by a factor of 10 or so. Keith

July 10, 2009

[Pharo-project] New Pharo based on core 10373

by Torsten Bergmann

the new image built by Damien [1] now also as Win32 Setup [2] Have fun Torsten [1] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2009-July/010684.html [2] https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/22635/setup_pharo_0.0.0.6.exe -- GRATIS fÃ¼r alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01

July 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

by Henrik Sperre Johansen

On 09.07.2009 23:03, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same as in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I found that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task. >> > > Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph. > > This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the owning > package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the package for > every method is removed the sender browser opens almost instantly. > > Lukas > > Hmmm, really? I do have a fast machine, and it ran in 1,7 seconds for me, but when I run TimeProfileBrowser on the block (first time, later runs alot of stuff is already cached and thus won't show up as prominently if you do TimeProfile on opening a batch of windows ), I get the following percentages: - 32% building the dynamic "all" category - 19% reading all subclass selectors (these are then cached). - 13% reading the timestamp of the compiledMethods /(these are then cached) from sources to see if they're recent - 20% finding extension classes, amongst other things PackageInfo here spends half that time doing an includes: check with an OrderedCollection with 174 elements... -41% building the OB UI. -7% GC'ing A good increase in response time could probably be seen by, as you said, not selecting all category by default, instead promising of it's calculation (In VisualWorks anyways, for those who don't know, it's the same as a fork which returns a value, but blocks if the value it attempted to be used before it's finished calculated). 2 small Performance "bugs" I encountered while checking the methods: OBPackagesOrClassNode>>addUnpackagedCategories: categories to: pkgs does: SystemOrganization categories asSet difference: categories Looking at what the includes check in difference: is done against, it's clear the code should be: SystemOrganization categories difference: categories asSet. Difference: 500 repetitions in the debugger I had open at the time: 10866 ms vs 581 ms. (20 times faster) PackageInfo >> externalClasses reads: myClasses := self classesAndMetaClasses. then does an includes: check, could add an asSet on end there: myClasses := self classesAndMetaClasses asSet. Difference: 500 repetitions in the debugger I had open at the time: 105444ms vs 11447 ms (9 times faster) With these 2 changes, the 20% in finding extension classes was reduced to 11%. Cheers, Henry

July 10, 2009

[Pharo-project] apparently versions seems to be broken

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

When I remove a method then realize that this is a mistake, retyping the exact same selector and pressing versions does not show me the previous method. Can somebody confirm and ifTrueCreateABugEntryAndProvideAFixThanks We should fix that :) Stef

July 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] byte codes, parse-tree walking, etc.

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

Hi Cameron, 2009/7/8 Cameron Sanders <camsanders01(a)roadrunner.com> > 2.b) And what is the name (& path) of the C module that actually > implements the VM case statement (or whatever dispatch is used)? > > I think the switch you're asking for is in the files interp.c and/or gnu-interp.c, in the function interpret(void). Cheers, HernÃ¡n

July 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

methodDisplayStringForClass: class selector: sel ^ String streamContents: [ :s | s nextPutAll: class name ; nextPutAll: ' ' ; nextPutAll: sel ; nextPutAll: ' {' ; nextPutAll: ((class organization categoryOfElement: sel) ifNil: ['']) ; nextPutAll: '} '] " nextPut: $[ ; nextPutAll: (PackageOrganizer default mostSpecificPackageOfClass: class ifNone: [PackageInfo named: '**unpackaged**']) packageName ; nextPut: $]]." On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:10 PM, Michael Rueger wrote: > Lukas Renggli wrote: >>> OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a >>> 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same >>> as in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I found >>> that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task. >> >> Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph. >> >> This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the >> owning package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the >> package for every method is removed the sender browser opens almost >> instantly. > > Then we should remove or at least temporarily disable it. The user > doesn't care why something is slow. > > michael > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Im wirting a real package object to replace package info. I hope to have something by the end of the summer. Stef On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:03 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a >> 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same >> as in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I found >> that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task. > > Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph. > > This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the owning > package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the package for > every method is removed the sender browser opens almost instantly. > > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

welcome to squeak.... On Jul 10, 2009, at 6:31 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > Good question... I was also puzzled because changing the ToolSet does > not change the browser. > > try > > SystemBrowser askForDefault > > or directly do > > SystemBrowser default: Browser > > Cheers, > Adrian > > On Jul 9, 2009, at 23:41 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> Dumb question: what part of ToolSet askForDefault makes the actual >> change to the default? My real question is what would I do to >> script setting the standard tool set as the default? >> >> Bill >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr >> ] On Behalf Of Gary Chambers >> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 12:30 PM >> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook- >> and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo >> MITlicenseclean)) >> >> Ouch! Wonder why... >> (2.8 Quad core here, Vista 64bit SP1, 4GB ram, Pharo-core-10371, >> Arial 10 fonts via FreeType *StandardToolSet*, image backgound >> (clownfish)). >> >> 260ms is best time recorded. >> >> Regards, Gary >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Benoit St-Jean<mailto:bstjean@yahoo.com> >> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> >> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 6:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook- >> and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo >> MITlicenseclean)) >> >> If that helps, I get 7316ms !! >> >> Pharo0.1 >> Latest update: #10373 >> >> On Windows XP, SP3 >> Dual Core, 3GHz, 2Gb RAM >> >> Vanilla Pharo image with FFI & ODBC packages loaded. >> >> >> ----------------- >> Benoit St-Jean >> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean >> Blog: lamneth.wordpress.com >> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero. >> (Albert Einstein) >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Gary Chambers <gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com<mailto:gazzaguru2@btinternet.com >>>> >> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2009 1:01:00 PM >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and >> look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] >> Pharo MITlicenseclean)) >> >> As I mentioned on squeak-dev... >> With the StandardToolSet I get 300ms or less... >> >> Regards, Gary >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Damien Cassou" <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com<mailto:damien.cassou@gmail.com >>>> >> To: "Pharo Development" <pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>> ; "David >> RÃ¶thlisberger" <roethlis(a)iam.unibe.ch<mailto:roethlis@iam.unibe.ch>> >> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:22 PM >> Subject: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and >> look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] >> Pharo >> MITlicenseclean)) >> >> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Andreas Raab <andreas.raab(a)gmx.de<mailto:andreas.raab@gmx.de>> >>> Date: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM >>> Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The >>> future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Pharo MIT >>> licenseclean)) >>> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list >>> <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org<mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun. >>> >>> On my box this takes 506 msecs in Squeak 3.10, using Pharo it's at >>> 5020 msecs. That's 10x slower. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Damien Cassou >>> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st >>> >>> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them >>> popular by not having them." James Iry >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>> >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> ________________________________ >> [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ca/iotg_search.jpg]Yahoo! >> Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your >> favourite sites. Download it now! <http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com/> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

yes probably but I really needed that when curving out etoy On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:10 PM, Michael Rueger wrote: > Lukas Renggli wrote: >>> OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a >>> 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same >>> as in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I found >>> that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task. >> >> Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph. >> >> This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the >> owning package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the >> package for every method is removed the sender browser opens almost >> instantly. > > Then we should remove or at least temporarily disable it. The user > doesn't care why something is slow. > > michael > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Squeak Forks Popularity & Trends Estimate

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Jul 9, 2009, at 10:43 PM, Robert Peters wrote: > > Dear David and Stephane, > > Thank you for your replies. David, you make excellent points. I > did not > know about VW being free and will try it out. And you're certainly > right > that however much Smalltalk web resources are smaller than Python's, > it is > certainly a much better environment for learning Smalltalk now than > it was > 20 years ago. VW is not free but you can use a non commercial version > > And Stephane, I say 'your' and not 'our' because if my wife found > out I got > involved in yet another cause on the web, she'd kill me! And also, > I can't > code in Smalltalk, so I'm very much a spectator. so find a lilttle project and do ti been a spectator is not the way to get involved and learn > > But I did not intend for my original post to be negative. I > absolutely > believe Pharo is 100% on the right track, and a critical component > in a > potential Smalltalk resurgence. > > So I'll keep waiting, and when 1.0 comes out, I'll give it a try > again. OK > > Kind regards, > Robert > > > David Mitchell-6 wrote: >> >> Sorry, I think my intent got lost in my joy for nostalgia. >> >> There was a big Smalltalk party but it ended. Then it was quiet for a >> while (but the party was underground). >> >> Now, the party is getting started again. >> >> You may just be a little early coming to the second party. >> >> Things you have today that I didn't have in 1994: >> You can download (Pharo, GNU Smalltalk, Squeak and use it however you >> like). >> There are two free, open source, and maintained cross dialect web >> frameworks: Seaside and AidaWeb (we wrote our own and it paled in >> comparison) >> You can use Gemstone for free for small sites. >> You can use Magma as a free OODB. >> You can use VW for non-commercial (including to learn Smalltalk). >> The Squeak list exists. (All I had was comp.lang.smalltalk). >> Many good Smalltalk blogs. >> Almost all of the old Smalltalk books are available free as PDF. >> Many of the new Smalltalk books are available free and from Lulu. >> Most of the classics can still be bought used on Amazon. >> James Roberson's smalltalk podcasts. >> James Robertson's nearly daily Smalltalk screencasts. >> Randal Schwartz promoting Smalltalk >> squeak irc channel >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Robert >> Peters<thewinterlion(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> Yes, you're quite right, David. But my point is that my particular >>> situation >>> is representative of everyone who is not currently in the Smalltalk >>> community. I posted because I want the Smalltalk community to >>> grow, but >>> it's peak has passed. There are no SUGs, there is no Smalltalk >>> magazine, >>> there are no web resources. And the Smalltalk community must grow >>> if it >>> is >>> to be taken seriously. >>> >>> I cannot go back in time and learn it in the 'peak'. I must learn >>> it >>> now, >>> with the resources that are available now. These resources are >>> lacking. >>> >>> If a person was equally proficient in Smalltalk and Python, which >>> would >>> they >>> produce better code faster in? >>> >>> I suspect the answer may be Smalltalk, because of its one, >>> beautiful, >>> paradigm. But I, and millions like me, will never know. >>> >>> I'm hoping Pharo will be the first steps in changing that. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Robert >>> >>> >>> David Mitchell-6 wrote: >>>> >>>> I would insert the phrase "for you" several times into your post. >>>> That >>>> is, is Python a better language (for me) at this time. Or, was >>>> Python >>>> an easier language (for me) to learn than Smalltalk. >>>> >>>> If you come late enough to the party (and the party is large >>>> enough), >>>> you can Google for all your answers. Smalltalk's popularity >>>> spiked in >>>> the early 90s (until Java popped its bubble). You couldn't Google >>>> for >>>> Smalltalk answers then largely due to the lack of Google ;-). >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> View this message in context: >>> http://n2.nabble.com/Squeak-Forks-Popularity---Trends-Estimate-tp3211130p32… >>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> > > -- > View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Squeak-Forks-Popularity---Trends-Estimate-tp3211130p32… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 10, 2009