July 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Once upon a time, in a code forest ...

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Oh man...what are you doing here ? You must be writing a book :) Excellent story! Mariano On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 11:51 PM, Guido Stepken <gstepken(a)googlemail.com>wrote: > [That phrase made me think: "we will remove BookMorph because it is a giant > huge terrible mess. Now if you want multimedia publishing or creation have > you look at openSophie? Stef"] > > ... some funny looking dwarfs were busy removing code ... > > That's like walking through a wonderful forest and randomly removing trees > or branches, just because the aren't pretty enough or their "copyright" is > unclear. > > Now you have removed many trees in the forest and replaced them by > perfectly looking houses. And you have chased away all that funny animals, > that were living in that forest, playing around within that unperfect, wild > nature, therefore being motivated to participate to help making wood glades > or creating funny things ... > > Now, thanks to some replacements of that old roots, the perfect looking > houses can move as triple as fast in the wind, which even can blow much > faster now, but the rest of the plants in this forest can't compete the > wind, so it is planned to remove them completely. > > And - yes, the copyright of those new houses is much clearer now. But the > wild bear, the badger, the lynx, they still prefer to live in their old > caves, giving a shit on who created them in former times, completely > ignoring those nice and perfectly looking houses .... that - by the way - > can be found everywhere else outside this forest - bigger, greater, much > nicer looking and even storm proofed. > > And the animals in this forest - being a bit sad about those happenings, > they lived happily ever after, hopefully. > > Have fun! > > Tnx for reading, Guido Stepken > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

July 15, 2009

[Pharo-project] Once upon a time, in a code forest ...

by Guido Stepken

[That phrase made me think: "we will remove BookMorph because it is a giant huge terrible mess. Now if you want multimedia publishing or creation have you look at openSophie? Stef"] ... some funny looking dwarfs were busy removing code ... That's like walking through a wonderful forest and randomly removing trees or branches, just because the aren't pretty enough or their "copyright" is unclear. Now you have removed many trees in the forest and replaced them by perfectly looking houses. And you have chased away all that funny animals, that were living in that forest, playing around within that unperfect, wild nature, therefore being motivated to participate to help making wood glades or creating funny things ... Now, thanks to some replacements of that old roots, the perfect looking houses can move as triple as fast in the wind, which even can blow much faster now, but the rest of the plants in this forest can't compete the wind, so it is planned to remove them completely. And - yes, the copyright of those new houses is much clearer now. But the wild bear, the badger, the lynx, they still prefer to live in their old caves, giving a shit on who created them in former times, completely ignoring those nice and perfectly looking houses .... that - by the way - can be found everywhere else outside this forest - bigger, greater, much nicer looking and even storm proofed. And the animals in this forest - being a bit sad about those happenings, they lived happily ever after, hopefully. Have fun! Tnx for reading, Guido Stepken

July 15, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo-Dev/web Image slowness

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

So, please correct me if I am wrong: 1) The most secure cross-fork way to update Monticello for clean images is HTTPSocket httpFileIn: 'ftp.squeak.org/3.11/scripts/LPF.st'. 2) Installer is necessary to update Monticello to 1.5 or 1.6 3) It is well-know that packages like OmniBrowser doesn't load after this update is done? (at least in Squeak images) See http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=7369 HernÃ¡n 2009/7/14 Keith Hodges <keith_hodges(a)yahoo.co.uk> > HernÃ¡n Morales Durand wrote: > > Dear Keith > > Can you please specify what's the proper way to update Monticello? > > Is there a way to do it without the Installer package? If the > > Installer package is really a must for updating Monticello, can you > > point what is the right way to install the Installer? Does the same > > procedure work equally for 3.9, 3.10 and Pharo images? > > Thanks in advance > > > > HernÃ¡n > See previous email. > > Also Universes has an entry for Monticello1.5 and 1.6 > > Installer can load the source.st file from a mcz, this is needed to load > Monticello. All the scripts for loading Monticello into various images > are in InstallerScripts. > > Keith > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

July 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo-Dev/web Image slowness

by Keith Hodges

HernÃ¡n Morales Durand wrote: > Dear Keith > Can you please specify what's the proper way to update Monticello? > Is there a way to do it without the Installer package? If the > Installer package is really a must for updating Monticello, can you > point what is the right way to install the Installer? Does the same > procedure work equally for 3.9, 3.10 and Pharo images? > Thanks in advance > > HernÃ¡n See previous email. Also Universes has an entry for Monticello1.5 and 1.6 Installer can load the source.st file from a mcz, this is needed to load Monticello. All the scripts for loading Monticello into various images are in InstallerScripts. Keith

July 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo-Dev/web Image slowness

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

I mean Monticello/PackageInfo HernÃ¡n 2009/7/14 HernÃ¡n Morales Durand <hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> > Dear Keith > Can you please specify what's the proper way to update Monticello? Is > there a way to do it without the Installer package? If the Installer package > is really a must for updating Monticello, can you point what is the right > way to install the Installer? Does the same procedure work equally for 3.9, > 3.10 and Pharo images? > Thanks in advance > > HernÃ¡n > > 2009/7/14 Keith Hodges <keith_hodges(a)yahoo.co.uk> > >> > >> > PackageInfo and the package browser are slow. >> as I said Matthew already sped up PackageInfo by at least a factor of 10 >> in MC1.5 >> >> Keith >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > >

July 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo-Dev/web Image slowness

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

Dear Keith Can you please specify what's the proper way to update Monticello? Is there a way to do it without the Installer package? If the Installer package is really a must for updating Monticello, can you point what is the right way to install the Installer? Does the same procedure work equally for 3.9, 3.10 and Pharo images? Thanks in advance HernÃ¡n 2009/7/14 Keith Hodges <keith_hodges(a)yahoo.co.uk> > > > > PackageInfo and the package browser are slow. > as I said Matthew already sped up PackageInfo by at least a factor of 10 > in MC1.5 > > Keith > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

July 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

by Keith Hodges

StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > Keith > > where can I find MC1.5 because I could not find it on squeaksource. > Is it Monticello Public? > > http://www.squeaksource.com/mc To load see http://installer.pbworks.com/LevelPlayingField Keith

July 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Graphical Objects

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Brad, I never like to see a Smalltalk project being rewritten in X to improve this or that, _especially_ its stability. Knowing nothing other than having looked at Sophie a while back and the little bit I read courtesy of a quick search on Sophie and Java, some guesses: First, I suspect the strange look did not help. Sophie had a very pre-Pinesoft, post-Croquet "enhanced" look IIRC - not what one wants to show to marketing types. I can picture that meeting; good thing I'm busy that year. Add to that the Squeak community's general aversion for modal dialogs (even dialogs in general) that keep users out of trouble, and things would not go well. Don't believe me about modes? Consider my boss - a great guy, inventive, brilliant (no, I'm not just sucking up<g>, besides, he'll never read this) and able to turn a poorly protected piece of software into mush. Let him start the machine working on multiple conflicting/racing tasks at your peril, ok. Modes can be good; properly designed, they guide the user vs. being a gratuitous constraint. Second, and perhaps more tenuous, I wonder about the design of Squeak's streams. They did say they wanted to improve stability. Personally, my money is on the (absense of) user interface convention mixed with real users leading to a mess, but Squeak's default actions can obscure the real cause of an error. Instead of understanding that too much was read at a well-defined place (while it is happening), one gets a subsequent bounds violation or other other problem, very likely "long" after the I/O is done. It's asking for trouble IMHO. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Brad Fuller Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 3:42 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Graphical Objects On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 1:32 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse<stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > On Jul 14, 2009, at 9:50 PM, Brad Fuller wrote: > >> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 12:40 PM, StÃ©phane >> Ducasse<stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >>> Hi brad >>> No :) >>> We removed it ;) because it was a mess but I would like to have have >>> a better one. >>> We could imagine morph to use a creation method with Â a pragma and >>> that a tool would query that pragma and we could get the morph. >> >> I agree that it was messy, from my inexperienced skillset. I would >> love to have a way to create projects or books and populate with >> graphics and multimedia for presentations. Pharo looks so nice and it >> seems to run quickly (could be my mind though) that it would be great >> to use. > > we will remove BookMorph because it is a giant huge terrible mess. > Now if you want multimedia publishing or creation have you look at > openSophie? I have looked at Sophie in a limited way.. First, it's Java now (hmmmm..) But, kidding aside, I didn't particularity like the way Sophie confined the space for objects. My perception might clearly be a result of my limited use of (Squeak) Sophie, perhaps John can steer me in the right direction. I also believe (Java) Sophie is just in alpha and Squeak Sophie is not maintained. I just liked the way I could create presentations in Squeak - it seemed open and I could create any new objects or tweak the old by adjusting code. -- Brad Fuller +1 (408) 335-0112 _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Keith where can I find MC1.5 because I could not find it on squeaksource. Is it Monticello Public? ? Installer installSilentlyUrl: 'http://installer.pbwiki.com/f/PackageInfo-Base-kph.67.st' . Installer installSilentlyUrl: 'http://installer.pbwiki.com/f/Monticello.impl-kph.635.st' . Stef On Jul 10, 2009, at 3:27 PM, Keith Hodges wrote: > Henrik Sperre Johansen wrote: >> On 09.07.2009 23:03, Lukas Renggli wrote: >>>> OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up >>>> a 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, >>>> same as in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I >>>> found that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task. >>>> >>> >>> Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph. >>> >>> This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the >>> owning >>> package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the package >>> for >>> every method is removed the sender browser opens almost instantly. >>> >>> Lukas >>> >>> > I don't know if this helps but in MC1.5 Matthew sped up the > PackageInfo > routines for scanning the image by a factor of 10 or so. > > Keith > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Graphical Objects

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>>>> Hi brad >>>> No :) >>>> We removed it ;) because it was a mess >>>> but I would like to have have a better one. >>>> We could imagine morph to use a creation method with a pragma and >>>> that a tool would query that pragma >>>> and we could get the morph. >>> >>> I agree that it was messy, from my inexperienced skillset. I would >>> love to have a way to create projects or books and populate with >>> graphics and multimedia for presentations. Pharo looks so nice and >>> it >>> seems to run quickly (could be my mind though) that it would be >>> great >>> to use. >> >> we will remove BookMorph because it is a giant huge terrible mess. >> Now if you want multimedia publishing or creation have you look at >> openSophie? > > I have looked at Sophie in a limited way.. First, it's Java now > (hmmmm..) But, kidding aside, I didn't particularity like the way > Sophie confined the space for objects. My perception might clearly be > a result of my limited use of (Squeak) Sophie, perhaps John can steer > me in the right direction. I also believe (Java) Sophie is just in > alpha and Squeak Sophie is not maintained. > > I just liked the way I could create presentations in Squeak - it > seemed open and I could create any new objects or tweak the old by > adjusting code. I liked that too except that I lost my soul trying to do a loop to load projects for my presentation. In pharo there is bookmorph anymore (if someone wants to build a new one we would be happy but not one like the old one). I did a tiny project once to create slideMorph but this was not as complete as bookmorph but may be a start. Stef

July 14, 2009