July 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance???

by Lukas Renggli

>Â These things happen when they should, and do not happen when they should not, as apparently is the case for Squeak/Pharo. It is correct that these scripts are run after a snapshot, because when the image is saved it has to be shutdown so that it can come up correctly again. I guess Dolphin works exactly the same. The problem in Pharo/Squeak is that some of shutdown and startup scripts might not really be necessary to run in the case of a save without quit, so feel free to submit optimizations in this area. Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

July 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance???

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Lukas, I wondered about startup, and let's assume you are correct. Since the time hit for the scripts can be significant, it would be nice to wrap them with the display of the busy cursor. As it is, the machine winks out for a while, and the user is not notified that it's happening, and perhaps even more important, when it's over. Related to Sophie's "instability" perhaps? I can envision a frustrated user queuing a lot of input that later gets processed and causes trouble. More idealistically, this becomes an example of the beauty of Dolphin's session management. The VM knows when it is launched and tells the image, invoking startup (and conversely shutdown) behavior. These things happen when they should, and do not happen when they should not, as apparently is the case for Squeak/Pharo. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Lukas Renggli Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:01 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? > I've noticed something that seems unusual to me. Â Choose save and quit, and the writing cursor appears, disappears, and the image is almost immediately gone after that happens. Â Choose save, and the cursor appears, sticks around for about the same amount of time as for save and quit (this part is a little bit of a stretch), and then the image becomes unresponsive for (depending) one or more seconds. That's probably because startup scripts are run. In the first case this happens when the image comes up. Cheers, Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 16, 2009

[Pharo-project] Fwd: how to get MC1.5

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> > > I did > > > Installer ss project:'mc'; > installQuietly: 'Monticello.impl-kph.635'; > installQuietly: 'PackageInfo-Base'. > > and it breaks on me. > > Stef > > >

July 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] optimizing select:thenCollect:

by Lukas Renggli

> I use them a lot... just because "select:thenCollect:" looks clearer to > me than "(select:)collect:", and I can indent the code in a more > fashion way to me. > Of course, if you choose remove it, I can change my code without any > problem (it is not so hard, after all :) ), but I just wanted to point > that optimization is not always the reason because a protocol can be > added... some times, is gramatics too. The following rewriter changes your code automatically. We use it as part of Slime to ensure portability. ParseTreeRewriter new replace: '``@collection collect: ``@block1 thenDo: ``@block2' with: '(``@collection collect: ``@block1) do: ``@block2'; replace: '``@collection collect: ``@block1 thenSelect: ``@block2' with: '(``@collection collect: ``@block1) select: ``@block2'; replace: '``@collection reject: ``@block1 thenDo: ``@block2' with: '(``@collection reject: ``@block1) do: ``@block2'; replace: '``@collection select: ``@block1 thenCollect: ``@block2' with: '(``@collection select: ``@block1) collect: ``@block2'; replace: '``@collection select: ``@block1 thenDo: ``@block2' with: '(``@collection select: ``@block1) do: ``@block2' Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

July 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] optimizing select:thenCollect:

by Esteban Lorenzano

I use them a lot... just because "select:thenCollect:" looks clearer to me than "(select:)collect:", and I can indent the code in a more fashion way to me. Of course, if you choose remove it, I can change my code without any problem (it is not so hard, after all :) ), but I just wanted to point that optimization is not always the reason because a protocol can be added... some times, is gramatics too. Cheers, Esteban On 2009-07-16 07:02:56 -0300, Andres Valloud <avalloud(a)smalltalk.comcastbiz.net> said: > I'd favor removing such methods. The allocation optimization can be > > implemented better whenever it's needed, and IME it doesn't happen that > > often. > > StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> so in that case I would be in favor to remove them because this >> does not help and just bloat the image. >> >> >> >> On Jul 16, 2009, at 8:21 AM, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> >> > >>>> select: selectBlock thenCollect: collectBlock >>>> >>>> | newCollection | >>>> newCollection := self species new. >>>> self do: [:each | (selectBlock value: each) ifTrue: > >>>> [newCollection add: >>>> (collectBlock value: each)]]. >>>> ^newCollection >>>> > >>> That code would also break Dictionary and Array. >>> >>> I think the methods #select:thenCollect: and #collect:thenSelect: >>> should be removed: >>> >>> - This is a low level optimization that the compiler (or JIT) should >>> optimize, not the developer. >>> - 'a select: b thenCollect: c' is longer to write than '(a select: b) >>> collect: c'. Furthermore it is not that obvious what it does. I have >>> seen several people being confused about it. >>> - This is just #select:thenCollect:, what about >>> #reject:thenCollect:select:thenInjectInto:? What about all subclasses >>> that require a new implementation (Array, Dictionary, ...) of such >>> methods. >>> >>> If people really want to be able to combine enumerator methods for >>> higher efficiently the Collection hierarchy should be fixed. Having >>> external iterator objects like in C++ and Java is not that bad after >>> all: >>> >>> result := aCollection iterator >>> select: [ :e | ... ]; >>> collect: [ :e | ... ]; >>> contents >>> >>> The accessors #select:, #reject:, #collect: ... on the iterator object >>> would just iteratively create a new iteration block that is lazily >>> executed when the result is accessed with #contents, #size or #do:. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Lukas >>> >>> -- > >>> Lukas Renggli >>> http://www.lukas-renggli.ch >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> .

July 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] optimizing select:thenCollect:

by Paolo Bonzini

On 07/16/2009 11:38 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > Paolo > > why Iterable as a superclass of stream and collection? > Why not a trait? > Then I'm wondering why this would be faster. Maybe for just "(a select: ...) collect: b" it would not be faster. However, the important thing is to provide: 1) a new abstraction. Providing more polymorphism between Collections and Streams can only do good, especially when the semantics are 100% identical as for #detect: or #fold: (based on #do:). In GNU Smalltalk I did a bit more by providing also #readStream and #nextPutAllOn:, but that's not necessary so I kept my pharo proposal minimal. 2) a new bag of tools. Lazy filtering has been proposed in many different ways, so it *is* useful. Adding Iterable is in my opinion the best way to provide this tool in a way that fits the simplicity of the standard Smalltalk class library (this is a way to say that #doesNotUnderstand: tricks have their place, but other ways should be explored as well). Paolo

July 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] optimizing select:thenCollect:

by Paolo Bonzini

On 07/16/2009 12:04 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: > I believe, that in > this case*not* using traits forces you to do the right thing: > delegate to another object that knows how to iterate over your object. Agreed. Adding a #do: method to a class can often be the right thing, but I still have to see one case when a non-Collection, non-Stream class would have advantages from a public #inject:into: or #fold: or #detect: method. A sidenote -- things that do not count: 1) #select:/#reject:/#collect:, because those would be abstract in Iterable anyway. 2) using the above methods from within the class itself, because 99.99% of the cases you will have an underlying collection or stream and you can access that underlying object without violating information hiding. >>> >> Is this going >>> >> to be ANSI? >> > >> > DNU? why ANSI has to be in the story? > > Paolo is in the ANSI committee, I though. Maybe that will be added? There is no ANSI committee, that required to pay money and was not considered viable. There is a mailing list (run by Bruce Badger) and a protocol (hosted at the GNU Smalltalk site, see the "STEPs" link in the home page) to submit proposals for extensions to Smalltalk, hopefully so that they can be implemented cross vendor. But it has been dormient for too long. :-( Paolo

July 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making some progress, and a few observations

by Gary Chambers

In the Windows camp, Watery2 theme... Vista 64bit (32bit VM, of course), 4GB DDR2-800, Q9550 (2.8GHz), Pharo0.1Core-10371. 0 tinyBenchmarks '569205113 bytecodes/sec; 16188534 sends/sec' Time millisecondsToRun: [ Browser fullOnClass: Object selector: #at:. World displayWorld] 373 Older laptop, XP, 1GB, Pentium M (1.73 GHz)... 0 tinyBenchmarks '294761082 bytecodes/sec; 8530869 sends/sec' Time millisecondsToRun: [ Browser fullOnClass: Object selector: #at:. World displayWorld] 677 Still feels quite responsive even on that! Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Schwab,Wilhelm K" <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> To: <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr>; <alain.plantec(a)free.fr> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 2:07 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Making some progress, and a few observations On my crusty old Linux box: 155339805 bytecodes/sec; 3931964 sends/sec However, I always like to test on less than my customers will have, so by some arguments, this machine is just about right. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Alain Plantec [alain.plantec(a)free.fr] Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 6:19 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Making some progress, and a few observations Adrian Lienhard a Ã©crit : > Bill, > > Could you post the results of the following benchmark? > > 0 tinyBenchmarks > > On my MacBook Pro with 2.4GHz and the Mac 4.1.1beta2U VM I get: > > '543236074 bytecodes/sec; 12101592 sends/sec' > On Intel Core2 Duo T7700 at 2.4 GHz, Linux Ubuntu 9.04, 64 bit pharo-core : #10379 '585812356 bytecodes/sec; 14531440 sends/sec' pharo : #10373 '574312955 bytecodes/sec; 14261923 sends/sec' not so bad with linux :) Cheers Alain > Cheers, > Adrian > > On Jul 15, 2009, at 22:34 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > > >> Stef, >> >> No browser should be that slow. I suspect the Linux vm is not a >> speed demon, the xp machines I use are heavily burdened by anit- >> virus software and other performance drains, etc. My linux box at >> home might be further hindered by the fact that I bought a wide >> screen monitor for it, and use LOTS of screen real estate. Still, >> when I compare Pharo with other software (including Dolphin) under >> similarly abusive conditions, Pharo is not quick. >> >> This particular image is small; it is based on the most recent web >> image, and is 22 MB. It has some of my Seaside code in it, but has >> not yet executed same. I have a couple of Seaside cleanup >> expressions that help when images bloat up, but looking at the >> current size makes me think I'm missing an opportunity. All that >> aside, on my linux box, I find that after the saving cursor >> disappears, it can take a few seconds for the image to again become >> responsive. On xp in my office, there is at least a second of down >> time after the cursor reverts to normal. >> >> In doing some SIF imports, I noted that it was hard to tell when the >> image was still busy. I have no idea how long it should take to do >> the work it was doing, but it took long enough that some gentle >> prodding becomes irresistable: "is it done yet?" I remember lots of >> debate about Cursor class>>showWhile: on Dolphin; it might be one of >> those things that is tricky to get right. >> >> A little bit nicer news: I have it running on my office machine >> (xp), with FreeType in use, and it's ok with the standard tools and >> the w2k theme. >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr >> ] On Behalf Of StÃ©phane Ducasse >> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 2:31 PM >> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Making some progress, and a few >> observations >> >> >>> Stef, >>> >>> In terms of response times, even with a lot of things turned off, I >>> was still surprised at how long it takes to change from even one >>> method to another. >>> >> which browser are you using. >> Because the old browser should not be that slow. >> >> >> >>> Anything past 0.2 sec (or whatever that threshold is) starts to add >>> up; Pharo sometimes takes up to a second, which is _really_ shows up. >>> >>> Saving an image is not necessarily quick either, I _think_ >>> particuarly >>> on Linux?? >>> >> What is the size of your image: here jannik generated an image of >> 800 mb. >> >> >>> Also, I get the sense the wait cursors are displayed, on Linux, for a >>> smaller fraction of the down time than on Windows. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> ] On Behalf Of StÃ©phane Ducasse >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 12:58 PM >>> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Making some progress, and a few >>> observations >>> >>> >>> On Jul 15, 2009, at 6:04 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> I managed to create an install script; as I suspected would be case, >>>> it was very anticlimactic. I tried creating a password-protected >>>> directory under my personal web site, but that did not go well. The >>>> authentication is weird, so it was probably asking a lot. A >>>> directory repository worked. >>>> >>> Good to know >>> >>>> Does Monticello/PackageInfo see a change in method category (aka >>>> package) as a change to the package? >>>> >>> normally it should. >>> >>> >>>> It appears not, and it worries me a little in that it seems to make >>>> it easy to lose work by forgetting to save it. Do any of you script >>>> saving your packages? >>>> >>> you can check in ScriptLoader to see how we compute the packages that >>> changed (not only dirty but also new packages) >>> >>> >>>> The results are untested at present, but I used SIF to transfer a >>>> fair amount of code into Pharo. To cope with the naming of the ODBC >>>> classes, I ended up doing things like Smalltalk at:#DBConnection >>>> put:ODBCConnection, and that worked out nicely, at least AFAICT at >>>> this stage. SIF finally ended up complaining about running out of >>>> items when processing the last file. I reserve the right to later >>>> report that it was a miserable failure, but it looks like I most of >>>> the code imported. >>>> >>>> Using the standard tools, the w2k theme, disabling faded backgrounds >>>> and enabling fast drag, performance on an older Linux system is ok >>>> (more or less). There are still things that take too long, >>>> >>> like what? >>> >>> >>>> and Pharo's responses are no better (sometimes worse) than even >>>> software running over a remote desktop connection. We need a speed >>>> boost, but judicious settings help a little. >>>> >>>> Is there a way to disable the anti-aliased fonts? In fairness, I >>>> should try turning that off to see if any speed boost is worth the >>>> price. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Problem with SystemBrowser

by Gary Chambers

A number of fixes were passed on from our internal fixes and were integrated last October by Stef and Marcus. This issue was amongst those fixed. Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "StÃ©phane Ducasse" <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> To: <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Problem with SystemBrowser >I do not know but gary said that this is done in polymorph. > Now may be nicolas will comment. > > Stef > > On Jul 13, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > >> >> do we have this bug/fix ? >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Ian Trudel <ian.trudel(a)gmail.com> >> Date: Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 7:32 AM >> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Re: Problem with System Browser >> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list >> <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >> > >> >> >> 2009/7/13 Klaus D. Witzel <klaus.witzel(a)cobss.com>: >> > Less convenient (b/o more preparation) can be, to try this fix: >> > >> > - http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=7012 >> > >> > But thereafter, convenience level should be back at 100% :) >> > >> > Let us know how it works. >> > >> > /Klaus >> >> Thank you, Klaus. >> >> Though it reminds me how much I miss the help > update [...]. >> >> One goes on the page, there are many files available for download. >> Great, which one do I need? Ah, what in Rome! I am dary today... I did >> eval matthewf's comment but, unfortunately, the file name should have >> been .cs rather than .st. It's not exactly quick and simple. >> >> Did it fix the issue? Works for me. Why aren't we getting continuous >> integration of fixes as we use too... I'll never know. >> >> Regards, >> Ian >> >> -- >> http://mecenia.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] optimizing select:thenCollect:

by Lukas Renggli

>> Having an iterator class also avoids having to implement all these >> iteration methods over and over again, e.g. in visitors. > > lukas do you have an example because I do not see why > Also with traits you just have to implement do: and you get all the > other one for free. The class and metaclass system of Smalltalk is already at the limit of complexity that I can handle. Traits make this existing model even more complicated. Even with support from a trait aware browser I find traits extermely hard to use. To me the most important thing is that at all points in time I know exactly what changes when I compile a method. This is absolutely not clear when using traits. So far I haven't seen a single example where traits would really help. As Paolo suggested the problem can be simply solved by introducing an Iterable superclass to Collection and Stream. Now you might say that this only works if I am not inheriting from some other important class. True, an Iterable-trait would avoid that problem. However, adding such a trait to an existing hierarchy looks extremely scary to me. It potentially pollutes an existing protocol with existing code that is most likely unrelated (or maybe it already contains some iterator code for something else). I believe, that in this case *not* using traits forces you to do the right thing: delegate to another object that knows how to iterate over your object. >> Is this going >> to be ANSI? > > DNU? why ANSI has to be in the story? Paolo is in the ANSI committee, I though. Maybe that will be added? Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

July 16, 2009