July 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Call for testers of a faster MC

by Keith Hodges

> installer is mainly a DSL for installing a stuff. It doesn't > implementing a facilities which actually doing the work, just provides > you a convenient abstractions for using them. > It is generic, and covers multiple ways of installing code into system. > Sure, you are free to use just those which is good for you. > As to me it is compact enough, to not think about carving out unused things :) > > Well it was supposed to be a single class for compactness, but some people complained and it got refactored. I am wondering what this "unnecessary" stuff is Keith

July 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo apparently slow on linux

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Stef, You mean I have to admit what a pathetic old piece of junk I use? :) I'll be happy to tell you what I am using, and I too suspect that the linux vm might be a bit slower than it needs to be. Ideally, one would dual boot to allow a comparison against xp, or 2k. I am starting to consider buying a newer machine. If I do that, I will be willing to convert the current box into a dual boot testing platform, but would hesitate to do that now. I recently repartitioned the drive, and still remember how long it takes to re-re-re-re-re(getting the idea?)check it for errors. It was painful to watch. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of StÃ©phane Ducasse Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 1:31 PM To: An open mailing list to discuss any topics related to an open-source Smalltalk Cc: C. David Shaffer Subject: [Pharo-project] Pharo apparently slow on linux Hi David shaffer reported to me in fuzzy way that pharo is slow on linux. Dear linux users can you report if you experienced the same and on which machine distributions vm image please compare the core and the dev (with browser usage) _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 17, 2009

[Pharo-project] class variable names: initial cap not enforced

by Cameron Sanders

I just loaded the code I have been developing in Pharo into Squeak (closure VM, using 4.10.2-7179web09.07 image base) and it had one complaint while loading: Squeak (seemingly) requires an initial cap on class variable names. [Maybe it allows it... but it popped up the debugger on an MC load.] Does Pharo allow the symbol to start with lower case by design, or was that act of omission? I am merely raising point to make certain it is an act of commission. -Cam

July 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Call for testers of a faster MC

by Igor Stasenko

2009/7/17 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > > On Jul 17, 2009, at 6:23 PM, Douglas Brebner wrote: > >> StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >>> The problem doug is that it is unclear if all the features are needed >>> and what is the status of the implementation. I do not know what are >>> orphanage, scripts, upgrade upgrade, file....... >> >> Well, it was my understanding that this version of MC, PackageInfo and >> Installer were the ones which were intended to become the portable >> versions that all Squeak forks would use. > > > Well yes this is the intention of keith. > It was a bold challenge. Now if you look at Installer you get a lot of > things you > do not need. > installer is mainly a DSL for installing a stuff. It doesn't implementing a facilities which actually doing the work, just provides you a convenient abstractions for using them. It is generic, and covers multiple ways of installing code into system. Sure, you are free to use just those which is good for you. As to me it is compact enough, to not think about carving out unused things :) >>> We just did not update to MC1.5 because we are idiot or blind. >> >> I never claimed you were :( > > I did not mean you did :) > this was a subliminal message to others :) > >> >>> First we were focusing on something else and also when something is >>> working for you then it is difficult to try something new and risky >>> since it can stall the complete process. I do not even know what LFP >>> is doing in our back. >> >> As I understand it, this approach only upgrades Installer, >> PackaageInfo >> and Monticello, it doesn't include the rest of LPF. >> >>> Now the key point is that if somebody in the pharo community stand up >>> and take the **huge** and painful job to have a **real** look at >>> MC1.5/1.6 and to be here as a fireman then there is a chance that we >>> use it. Not just saying yes it works (which is already a challenge as >>> I noticed it these days). >> >> Yes, but my response was only to do with solving the the loading >> problem >> you had. Not that every MC problem had been solved :) > > ;) > Anyway this is a long way to go but we should go there step by step. > Welcome to pharo. > >> >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> >>> >>>> StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >>>>> I checked a bit but actualClassIn: in MC1.6 depends on >>>>> MCMethodDefinition having theClass as instanceVariable. >>>>> >>>>> The results of this experience is clearly showing me that merging >>>>> between fork is nearly impossible. I already lost some days on >>>>> that issues and I think that we will stay with a slow MC for now. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Isn't the version loaded by the following code from my other mail >>>> the already merged version of 1.5/1.6? (I believe that 1.6 is just >>>> 1.5 with atomic loading enabled) >>>> >>>> Preferences enable: #allowBlockArgumentAssignment. Preferences >>>> disable: #raiseDepreciatedWarnings. Installer upgrade upgrade. >>>> Installer install: 'UpgradeMonticelloBootstrap'. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

July 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Another Pharo wallpaper

by Gabriel Cotelli

Excelent!! I will participate on that... :) 2009/7/17 Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> > > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre(a)bergel.eu>wrote: > >> By the way, we should think about organizing a Pharo Sprint during >> Smalltalks in Bueno Aires >> > > This would be awesome! I think there will be a lot of people interested in > a Pharo sprint here. > Do you plan to come to smalltalks this year Alexandre? > > >> >> Cheers, >> Alexandre >> >> >> On 15 Jul 2009, at 14:54, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: >> >> > But this is ARGENTINIAN!!!! >> > >> > As I am building a tourism website I am collecting pictures. I found >> > one of a Pharo in a Argentinian province called "Tierra del Fuego". >> > The pharo is known as "Faro Les Eclaireurs". >> > >> > I attach the picture. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Mariano >> > <Faro Les >> > Eclaireurs.jpg>_______________________________________________ >> > Pharo-project mailing list >> > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

July 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo apparently slow on linux

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 5:31 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > Hi > > David shaffer reported to me in fuzzy way that pharo is slow on linux. > Dear linux users can you report if you experienced the same and > on which > machine > distributions > vm > image > > please compare the core and the dev (with browser usage) > Ok, let me explain MY experience. Most of my Pharo work is in Linux (at home). In windows I do little things because it is my work pc. My data: - Dual core 2 1.6 GZ, 2GB RAM - Ubuntu 8.10 - VM: Exupery: pharo-vm-0.15.1b-linux.zip - Images: latest Now my comments: 1) Mac hardware is much better than normal pcs 2) Mac VM seems faster than others. I don't know if it is because 1) or any other reason. 3) I did find Pharo still slow. I don't blame to it. I think they are doing the good setps: a) indentify the slow stuff b) try to disable them from Pharo image. This point is REALLY important for me because all of the nice work you are doing won't be see by others. They open an image and if it takes 3 seconds to open a browser, they will close it and never use it again. And what about our 5000 green test? MIT? closure? To trash... c) look at the slow stuff and try to improve it 4) I really don't see a big difference beetween Linux and Windows performance in my case. Both are more or less the same situation. 5) I did see difference BIG difference with this two things: a) compare core to dev b) compare package browser with the simpler one c) compare seaside one click to pharo. I think this is because of b) Because of this, in my pharo images I evaluate this when I download a new image: ToolSet default: StandardToolSet. SystemBrowser default: OBSystemBrowserAdaptor. Preferences enable: #fastDragWindowForMorphic. Preferences disable: #dynamicProtocolActivation. With this, my image is usable enough. But not fast. 6) If you have the image in a SUN or over the network, that's VERY slow. 7) In windows, take care of antivirus like Nod32 because they won't let you use Pharo (mostly when you are snapshooting). My proposal: There were some benchmarks trough different threads. So, what about recollecting all the benchmark we can (even create more if we can) and put them together in a script. We can do like a Poll and send an email to the mailing list. One we have several results, we can extract information from there. >From each user we must know which OS and version, which VM and version. The benchmarks can also be run with different configuration (using for example what I told above) and over different images (like core and pharo). Perhaps having all this information we can extract something useful. Best, Mariano > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

July 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Call for testers of a faster MC

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

of course this is ScriptLoader new gofer Stef

July 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Call for testers of a faster MC

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>>> Well yes this is the intention of keith. It was a bold challenge. >>> Now >> if you look at Installer you get a lot of things you do not need. > > True, but this was just an attempt to get MC loaded. I'd expect > quite a > lot could be trimmed. I know and this was nice from you. Now you may also have a look at a nice project named gofer on squeaksource :) soon available ScriptLoader gofer :) > >>>> Now the key point is that if somebody in the pharo community >>>> stand up and take the **huge** and painful job to have a **real** >>>> look at MC1.5/1.6 and to be here as a fireman then there is a >>>> chance that we use it. Not just saying yes it works (which is >>>> already a challenge as I noticed it these days). >>> Yes, but my response was only to do with solving the the loading >>> problem you had. Not that every MC problem had been solved :) >> >> ;) Anyway this is a long way to go but we should go there step by >> step. Welcome to pharo. > > Thank you :) > I've been away from Squeak for a while due to the problems it's had > but > one of the reasons I came back was seeing what was happening with > Pharo :) > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 17, 2009

[Pharo-project] Pharo apparently slow on linux

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi David shaffer reported to me in fuzzy way that pharo is slow on linux. Dear linux users can you report if you experienced the same and on which machine distributions vm image please compare the core and the dev (with browser usage)

July 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Call for testers of a faster MC

by Douglas Brebner

StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > On Jul 17, 2009, at 6:23 PM, Douglas Brebner wrote: > >> StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >>> The problem doug is that it is unclear if all the features are >>> needed and what is the status of the implementation. I do not >>> know what are orphanage, scripts, upgrade upgrade, file....... >> Well, it was my understanding that this version of MC, PackageInfo >> and Installer were the ones which were intended to become the >> portable versions that all Squeak forks would use. > > > Well yes this is the intention of keith. It was a bold challenge. Now > if you look at Installer you get a lot of things you do not need. True, but this was just an attempt to get MC loaded. I'd expect quite a lot could be trimmed. >>> Now the key point is that if somebody in the pharo community >>> stand up and take the **huge** and painful job to have a **real** >>> look at MC1.5/1.6 and to be here as a fireman then there is a >>> chance that we use it. Not just saying yes it works (which is >>> already a challenge as I noticed it these days). >> Yes, but my response was only to do with solving the the loading >> problem you had. Not that every MC problem had been solved :) > > ;) Anyway this is a long way to go but we should go there step by > step. Welcome to pharo. Thank you :) I've been away from Squeak for a while due to the problems it's had but one of the reasons I came back was seeing what was happening with Pharo :)

July 17, 2009