March 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: about adding chasing pointers and friends in the debug menu

by Alexandre Bergel

>>>> I'd prefer a shortcut for "debug it" >>>> >>> yes! I always wondered why there is none... >>> only question is, which key? >>> >> >> which keys are free (if any)? >> > cmd-shift D would be the logical thing. Adrian came to the same conclusion. Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

CÃ©drick, Look at the bright side: people let you use Smalltalk :) IMHO, you might not need to worry too much about deployment. I know much more about that in Dolphin than Squeak/Pharo, but I think the details of it get far too much attention in general. What OS? In Windows and Linux/Gnome, I just create shortcuts that load an image for Pharo, and it works fine. Just name the VM and the image to load, and user sees it as any other piece of software. The trick in Pharo is to save an image in the state appropriate for the end user. There are other far better qualified to help you over that bump. Happy Smalltalking! Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of CÃ©drick BÃ©ler Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:19 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you 2009/3/4 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > tx perl hacker :) > > Stef actually, I did only 2 weeks of Perl and I'm back to Pharo since... :) Thanks to smalltalk, the very good point is I've nearly finished something that is due in june !!! (I mean minus the 20% that takes most of the time plus all the fancy stuffs I'd like to do around diagrams). I think I did the main skeleton in a week :) (it a planer prototype) whereas my supervisor asked me for a class diagram... I just did in st and used OB to draw the diagram... and two days later it was nearly working :) I think that's just impossible in another language (with the same developer ;) ). 2 bad points though... - people let me do it but nobody even look at the code :( - don't know yet how to deploy ... Here I'd really like a micro image... I might do with Pavel image or even think to use gnu-st... Last solution is to port in perl mainly for people to maintain it if I leave. Still don't know but I'll come back with question when necessary... See you, CÃ©drick _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: about adding chasing pointers and friends in the debug menu

by Alexandre Bergel

>>>> I'd prefer a shortcut for "debug it" > > I also suggest to change "alt shift d". I think it's the best > shortcut. I've never used the old behavior, and never seen anybody > else using it. Would be great yes. Anyone working on it? I could do it if nobody is working on it. Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: about adding chasing pointers and friends in the debug menu

by Keith Hodges

Damien Cassou wrote: > On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> wrote: > >>> I'd prefer a shortcut for "debug it" >>> >> yes! I always wondered why there is none... >> only question is, which key? >> > > which keys are free (if any)? > cmd-shift D would be the logical thing. Keith

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] New Compiler

by Alexandre Bergel

>> Marcus Denker and myself will be working on the New Compiler for >> Pharo. > And once again I ask. Why can this not be a New Compiler for everyone? > Why can it not be a "New Compiler, full stop" as a black box, that > will > work for anyone who interfaces to it in a certain way? I am sure nobody is against getting the new compiler for Squeak or other dialects. However, it seems to me to be easier to achieve in Pharo. Again, if someone is willing to port it to other platform, that's great Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

by CÃ©drick BÃ©ler

>> I think Matthiew and Keith... and some others, really pushed the idea >> to live with forks (instead of building another image)... Â After a >> year or two, people start to go in their way... + people have maybe >> more time to collaborate. IMO, the arrival of Igor and Eliot is also a >> big win...0 >> > But note Igor and Elliot are folks thinking in an inclusive manner. > Neither are they simply squeak/pharo focused. of course I've noticed ;) >> I think 2008 was a good smalltalk year... Pharo is a good choice >> though because you offer something to developer that was simply absent >> before and moreover, "people" were really reluctant to go in that >> direction for squeak hence all your problems... So still, even if >> > Actually no, I did not see any reluctance to go in that direction at > all. there were... > In fact the tabled proposals for 3.11+ had identical goals to > pharo's but a different way of getting there. The Pharo team required > that they have full control, whereas the 3.11 team assumes that they > dont have control, they are facilitating through tools. there something true... squeak decision process is democratic... but with so many people having different interest it's hard to converge. Pharo is not democratic... but this is therefore quick to respond.. I find the tools orientation very clever ;) >> there's a resurgence of squeak development collaboration, Pharo has >> its place for the everyday developer Â (even people like me who like to >> do simple stuffs ... but in smalltalk). I see Pharo as the Smalltalk >> oriented to developers, where you experience good development >> practices (and invent new one) whereas squeak is more global, touch at >> everything, experiment in all directions... >> >> Pharo decision process will be anyway quicker than squeak (even with >> Andreas proposal)... You can't imagine how much a little change like >> the menu shrinking is important to me (and looked impossible to ask >> for in squeak...). > Why? We have had a mechanism for proposing and loading such changes for > 3 years. If you wanted to try new menus you could submit the changeset > to mantis and make that available for everyone. You didnt have to ask > anyone. I would happily use such a contribution. I reckon whereas I find the idea of installer cool, I'm just puzzled on how to use it...plus sometimes, before trying to do something, you just ask... (i did not clean the menu). I asked some maybe naive question/request on dev list and lots were simply never answered... I know it's a whole process to write and sen the right email... but here, I'm pretty sure I'll get a response. This is also to me an example of a difficulty with your mechanism/compared to Pharo decision process... because even just cleaning the menu involves others changes... In pharo the decision was taken to do it... so it's integrated... and adapted... I'm pretty sure this is not obvious in squeak... harder because nearly on its own to do it... and with big chances of not beeing integrated. and another exemple of positive synergy... Let's say it's robust and cool in Pharo, then it can be brought back to squeak ;) > > What we have been lacking is the build infrastructure for testing and > harnessing such contributions. This was on the road map for 3.10 but > never happened, because the 3.10 team continued to be focussed on the > image as a deliverable rather than the process. new board will favorize that harvest process and as far as I understand bob/sake and friends are the architecture... so it's cool ! Push it ;) > > Keith > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- CÃ©drick

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: about adding chasing pointers and friends in the debug menu

by Adrian Lienhard

On Mar 4, 2009, at 15:45 , CÃ©drick BÃ©ler wrote: > 2009/3/4 Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch>: >> >> On Mar 4, 2009, at 15:34 , CÃ©drick BÃ©ler wrote: >> >>> 2009/3/3 Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch>: >>>> I don't think these two items need a keyboard shortcut. It's not >>>> something you do all the time and would learn a shortcut for, I >>>> think. >>>> >>> >>> I'd prefer a shortcut for "debug it" >> >> yes! I always wondered why there is none... >> only question is, which key? > > ctr alt suppr :) > > no seriously, don't know... > > maybe if we could find a way to integrate inspector/explorer we could > use "alt shift i" > > "alt shift d" would be cool but it's duplicate which I've never > used... do you ? useful though I guess... to copy paste code ;) I also suggest to change "alt shift d". I think it's the best shortcut. I've never used the old behavior, and never seen anybody else using it. Adrian

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

by Lukas Renggli

> The problem with it is that Pharo will have a Pharo package system, a > Pharo SUinit, a Pharo Compiler, and a Pharo GUI, and none of the > packages will work between squeak and pharo. Why should it run on Squeak, if I have all my code running in Pharo? Sorry, I couldn't resist. Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: about adding chasing pointers and friends in the debug menu

by CÃ©drick BÃ©ler

> > which keys are free (if any)? > seeing system>keyboard shortcut none in letters (upercase or not...). This shortcuts are all on ParagraphEditor class side... While refactoring, couldn't it be possible to integrate shortcuts in here too ? -- CÃ©drick

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: about adding chasing pointers and friends in the debug menu

by CÃ©drick BÃ©ler

2009/3/4 Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch>: > > On Mar 4, 2009, at 15:34 , CÃ©drick BÃ©ler wrote: > >> 2009/3/3 Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch>: >>> I don't think these two items need a keyboard shortcut. It's not >>> something you do all the time and would learn a shortcut for, I >>> think. >>> >> >> I'd prefer a shortcut for "debug it" > > yes! I always wondered why there is none... > only question is, which key? ctr alt suppr :) no seriously, don't know... maybe if we could find a way to integrate inspector/explorer we could use "alt shift i" "alt shift d" would be cool but it's duplicate which I've never used... do you ? useful though I guess... to copy paste code ;) > Adrian > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- CÃ©drick

March 4, 2009