March 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

by Keith Hodges

Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Keith, > > I have never met Stef; I know him only through correspondence, direct and otherwise. Come to think of it, I probably know him pretty well. I *never* got any sense that he was the problem with Squeak. I don't buy it; I saw him trying to fix the problems I have described, and failing that, he started Pharo. > > Bill > I didnt say that he "was" the problem. I said he was the custodian of the process (one development team bottleneck) that you called a black hole. Keith

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] What's the problem people? :)

by Igor Stasenko

2009/3/4 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >> Hi Pharaos (and Squeak-dev)! :) > > Hi goran > > are you planning to come finally to esug that we drink beer together? > This year there will > be a wine tasting social event :) > I hope i can join you :) >> Alert to Pharaos: This is a cross post! (hehe) >> >> I just wanted to say (for whatever that is worth) that I like Pharo. >> And >> I like Squeak.org. And I like everyone doing stuff in/for/on >> Squeak/Pharo/Smalltalk/Huemul whatever. >> >> I have Pharo on my disk. I just started playing in it for a toy >> project >> involving RB AST, RoelTyper etc. > > I got (not tested) a new visitor for RB AST (elf on squeaksource) > >> But I do all Gjallar work on 3.10.2/LPF right now, it takes time >> moving >> a large project to a different baseline, so Gjallar will probably be >> on >> 3.10.2 for a while. But nothing prevents us from testing out Pharo >> later >> on - whatever works the best I say. Gjallar is also 95% ported to GS >> these days. > > sounds good. > >> I agree with Keith/Matthew that making good tools that can *span* >> different forks/communities *must* be a good thing for us all to have. >> All tools don't need to be spanning, but it doesn't hurt if *some* >> are - >> right? > > Exact. This is why I wrote a chapter on Installer for the new pharo > book :) > >> I *also* agree with Pharo people that hey, Pharo is a fork - we/you >> can >> do whatever we/you like! And that is good - it's the strength of >> Pharo. >> If Pharo diverts too much in "base stuff" it might turn into a >> weakness >> - but we just don't know these things, it is still to be seen. > > Exact > >> It is all about balance, benefits, etc. And we don't need to get angry >> with each other do we? :) Trust me, it just burns your energy! > > Exact this is why we did pharo :) > to stop arguing but doing instead: but you know us :) > >> I have code that seems to be doing fine in Pharo - SocketStream >> comes to >> mind. > > :) the power of MIT :) > In fact I do not know. > >> I know Pharo seem to be more inclined to use Universes than SM - >> fine with me, no problem. >> >> I hope to move SM forward in some way, and I hope it can still be >> loaded/used from within Pharo - even if it gets thrown out soon (I >> think >> I read something about that). > Yes I read that too :) > >> I also intend to use both Pharo, Squeak or >> whatever works best for my different tasks. > > Ok if you want to have some feedback on SM we can take that offline. > >> And finally I hope to revive DeltaStreams and make that work in >> Pharo as >> well as most other Squeak flavors. >> >> We are all Squeakers, right? :) >> >> regards, GÃ¶ran >> >> PS. I am not sure why I am so damn cheerful, > > May be you were always like that ;) I do not know I was kind not that > cheerful most of the > time :) > >> perhaps it is the SURGE I >> seem to feel in the Squeak community - so many things going on all >> over >> the place... ;) > > I do not know. We just started to move and to move at our pace > with a shared vision built on our past experience and communication. > Even our name and logo > means what we want to build: a warm beam of light in dark tempest nights > where any Smalltalker can find a place if he wants. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Keith, The water is warm, but you will find us determined to fix what bugs us. If you accuse us of snubbing contributions, you miss the spirit of a much needed cleaning. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Keith Hodges Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 11:21 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Keith, > > Call it Squeak or Pharo, I (and apparently many others here) want a clean Smalltalk. Kernel+packages is fine; I could also live with a well-factored big image from which I simply chop out things I do not need. If the system is good, I will adapt to the ways people chose to give it to me. > > You apparently want Squeak. No I dont want squeak, I want an environment in which contributions and concepts are appreciated, and shareable. I want this "not invented here" attitude scrapped. To be clear, I wrote SUnit-improved 3 years ago. I wasn't so arrogant as to say it is "The" SUnit. that everyone should use, I offered it as an alternativeand it has remained loadable from universes. The code may not be perfect but the concepts were perfectly reasonable: 1. Non GUI Test Runner, for use in an automated remote build system. 2. Classification of tests - for a world in which there are different forks images etc so that test suites can be a shared knowledge base of what works where. 3. A flexible test suite building interface that can be used to run other test suites like SSpec within the same tools. 4. A Cleaner Organisation under the category "Testing" e.g. "Testing-Common, Testing-Commmon-GUI, Testing-SUnit-Tests, Testing-SSpec-Tests etc. So... along comes pharo, and without any discussion at all in the general SUnit users forum, starts to "do their own thing with SUnit". Well thanks for nothing, it really makes you feel like contributing. Its not squeak that is the black hole, squeak isn't actively snubbing contributions. Keith _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

by Matthew Fulmer

On Wed, Mar 04, 2009 at 05:14:18PM +0100, St?phane Ducasse wrote: > Plonk I had no idea what Stef meant by this, so I asked on IRC. I think he meant this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk_(usenet) -- Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] What's the problem people? :)

by Adrian Lienhard

Hi GÃ¶ran, I think this is a good and constructive way to look at Squeak/Pharo! Re SqueakMap. We planned to remove SM from the core (doesn't need to be part of an image that gets deployed), but make it loadable again from the (not yet existing) universe. The only dependency I see is on MC (MCSMCacheRepository), and a few overrides. Is there already a loadable package for SM? Cheers, Adrian ___________________ http://www.adrian-lienhard.ch/ On Mar 4, 2009, at 16:29 , GÃ¶ran Krampe wrote: > Hi Pharaos (and Squeak-dev)! :) > > Alert to Pharaos: This is a cross post! (hehe) > > I just wanted to say (for whatever that is worth) that I like Pharo. > And > I like Squeak.org. And I like everyone doing stuff in/for/on > Squeak/Pharo/Smalltalk/Huemul whatever. > > I have Pharo on my disk. I just started playing in it for a toy > project > involving RB AST, RoelTyper etc. > > But I do all Gjallar work on 3.10.2/LPF right now, it takes time > moving > a large project to a different baseline, so Gjallar will probably be > on > 3.10.2 for a while. But nothing prevents us from testing out Pharo > later > on - whatever works the best I say. Gjallar is also 95% ported to GS > these days. > > I agree with Keith/Matthew that making good tools that can *span* > different forks/communities *must* be a good thing for us all to have. > All tools don't need to be spanning, but it doesn't hurt if *some* > are - > right? > > I *also* agree with Pharo people that hey, Pharo is a fork - we/you > can > do whatever we/you like! And that is good - it's the strength of > Pharo. > If Pharo diverts too much in "base stuff" it might turn into a > weakness > - but we just don't know these things, it is still to be seen. > > It is all about balance, benefits, etc. And we don't need to get angry > with each other do we? :) Trust me, it just burns your energy! > > I have code that seems to be doing fine in Pharo - SocketStream > comes to > mind. I know Pharo seem to be more inclined to use Universes than SM - > fine with me, no problem. > > I hope to move SM forward in some way, and I hope it can still be > loaded/used from within Pharo - even if it gets thrown out soon (I > think > I read something about that). I also intend to use both Pharo, > Squeak or > whatever works best for my different tasks. > > And finally I hope to revive DeltaStreams and make that work in > Pharo as > well as most other Squeak flavors. > > We are all Squeakers, right? :) > > regards, GÃ¶ran > > PS. I am not sure why I am so damn cheerful, perhaps it is the SURGE I > seem to feel in the Squeak community - so many things going on all > over > the place... ;) > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

by Keith Hodges

Lukas Renggli wrote: >> The problem with it is that Pharo will have a Pharo package system, a >> Pharo SUinit, a Pharo Compiler, and a Pharo GUI, and none of the >> packages will work between squeak and pharo. >> > > Why should it run on Squeak, if I have all my code running in Pharo? > We have two equal and opposite questions you could ask. I would ask "Why shouldn't it run on squeak?".... Keith

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Keith, I have never met Stef; I know him only through correspondence, direct and otherwise. Come to think of it, I probably know him pretty well. I *never* got any sense that he was the problem with Squeak. I don't buy it; I saw him trying to fix the problems I have described, and failing that, he started Pharo. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Keith Hodges Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 11:05 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Keith, > > I respectfully disagree on one fundamental point: the processes fed into a black hole. Ideas were ignored, well intentioned people were ridiculed. What Stef et al. have done (beyond a lot of great work) is fix that problem. > > Bill > But Bill, you are criticising the OLD process, which is the process that Stef and Marcus were custodians of for two years. It was they who made it more difficult to process by managing the image in packages without the needed tools. The pharo process is exactly the same black hole with exactly the same "not invented here attitude". In squeak land we have an all new process and some of us have been working on that all new process for 2+ years, Keith _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Mac Carbon VM 4.0.0b1 Closure Compiler Aware with Alien support

by Lukas Renggli

On the board opposite of my desk it says Pharo 1.1, but frankly I would like to see it in 1.0 as soon as possible. Lukas On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 5:25 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hi pharoers > > what do we do with the closure compiler? > Do we integrate it now or in 1.1 > > Stef > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 6:48 AM, John M McIntosh wrote: > >> Yes it compiles, yes after a bit of poking I could take a Squeak3.9- >> final-7067.image and build a closure aware image. >> No I could not do that without poking a bit, however I hope that we'll >> resolve the problems in a day or two. >> >> Yes, I could take a Pharo0.1Core-10243.image and after more poking >> could generate a closure aware Pharo image. >> >> At this time the 4.0.0b1 VM is not publicly available, another day or >> two of cross checking is required, I've asked the Pharo >> team to review my changes and the changes from Eliot. I've also asked >> Eliot to supply some fixes so we can recompile >> the Â Squeak3.9-final-7067 image without problems. >> >> I cannot speak for the 3.10 or 3.11 images, other parties will need to >> pursue any work to make them closure aware. >> >> Tomorrow I'll poke at making the iPhone VM closure aware, however any >> iPhone image relies on the Pharo team resolving >> what the change sets should be to make the image closure aware. >> >> -- >> = >> = >> = >> = >> = >> ====================================================================== >> John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> >> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. Â http:// >> www.smalltalkconsulting.com >> = >> = >> = >> = >> = >> ====================================================================== >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [Vm-dev] newDelta >0 failed in sqUnixMemory -- Was Re: Incompatibility between Pharo and Seasidehosting

by Igor Stasenko

2009/3/4 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > may be we should slowly think that we should get some people err.. get people for what? > - Show quoted text - > On Mar 4, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Bruce O'Neel wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> There seem to be three solutions (in best to worst order). >> >> - someone (Ian maybe) needs to rebuild the Unix VM with a VMMaker >> from within the last two years. Â Apparently the bug has been fixed >> for a >> while. >> >> - pass a fixed memory size to the VM >> >> -memory 200m >> >> or so does the trick. >> >> - patch the existing C source code. >> >> cheers >> >> bruce >> >> On Tue, Mar 03, 2009 at 09:19:13AM +0100, Tudor Girba wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I am not sure I got the summary of the discussion related to the >>> problem of deploying a Pharo-based image to seasidehosting. Is there >>> any conclusion? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "Problem solving efficiency grows with the abstractness level of >>> problem understanding." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Mac Carbon VM 4.0.0b1 Closure Compiler Aware with Alien support

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi pharoers what do we do with the closure compiler? Do we integrate it now or in 1.1 Stef On Mar 3, 2009, at 6:48 AM, John M McIntosh wrote: > Yes it compiles, yes after a bit of poking I could take a Squeak3.9- > final-7067.image and build a closure aware image. > No I could not do that without poking a bit, however I hope that we'll > resolve the problems in a day or two. > > Yes, I could take a Pharo0.1Core-10243.image and after more poking > could generate a closure aware Pharo image. > > At this time the 4.0.0b1 VM is not publicly available, another day or > two of cross checking is required, I've asked the Pharo > team to review my changes and the changes from Eliot. I've also asked > Eliot to supply some fixes so we can recompile > the Squeak3.9-final-7067 image without problems. > > I cannot speak for the 3.10 or 3.11 images, other parties will need to > pursue any work to make them closure aware. > > Tomorrow I'll poke at making the iPhone VM closure aware, however any > iPhone image relies on the Pharo team resolving > what the change sets should be to make the image closure aware. > > -- > = > = > = > = > = > ====================================================================== > John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> > Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http:// > www.smalltalkconsulting.com > = > = > = > = > = > ====================================================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

March 4, 2009