March 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] How to rename a package ?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

For me I see that more as a menu to rename a package :) Stef On Mar 20, 2009, at 8:28 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> Why don't we add it to MC? > > I am not a big fan of random untested scripts on classes somewhere in > the system. > > They rot very fast and people won't find and know how to use them. I > don't really see the relation of MCWorkingCopy to unpackaged code. For > me is more like a possible bug that can be detected by a system like > Code Critics. > > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

March 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [vwnc] Would you start a new Smalltalk project today?

by Janko MivÅ¡ek

Philippe Marschall pravi: >> Michael van der Gulik wrote: >> So now it seems that Gemstone is the only multi-core capable Smalltalk >> VM :-(. > AFAIK Gemstone isn't multi-core capable as well. You can just run > multiple gems and they share the same persistent memory. Which is > similar but different. Well, Gemstone can for sure be considered as multi-core capable. Every gem runs on its own process and therefore can run on its own CPU core. All gems then share a Shared Memory Cache. So, a typical multi-core scenario. Best regards Janko -- Janko MivÅ¡ek AIDA/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

March 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] I need some advice (was Re: [squeak-dev] Organising and Documenting Micro-Universes in Squeaksource)

by Keith Hodges

> > I have nearly 20 years of brain cells now if I do not die before so I > do not want to > spend my time on boring stuff when I can avoid it. > But you are throwing the baby out with the bath water. > No but we have the right to choose and consider if we like it or not. > > Actually I disagree. You are mixing two completely different things here. 1. Squeak, an open source project with lots of stake holders that may cramp your style. 2. Any other completely open sub-project which you are invited to contribute to and further your aims by participating with (i.e. Monticello) When you forked pharo you understandably forked 1. There was no need to fork any external projects (2) Every sub-project (2) has its own developers, and its own culture, and attitude towards participation and change. When you treat other -sub projects and their communities with the same contempt that you understandably have towards the squeak community, you result in insulting those communities. The initiative I started on MC has a culture of participation and collaboration, together with an ethos of being as responsive as possible to feedback and suggestions. When you ignore this, you insult everyone that has put time and effort into that project. In a similar manner, any initiative or sub-project that you undertake within pharo, can have an ethos following either of two options. A). Pharo team specific developed for pharo speced for pharo only. B). A completely open sub-project which anyone is invited to support and to further your aims by participating with. When you pick option A, or fork option 2, you are actually insulting every project that was offered to you on the basis of option 2 above. Because you are saying, that you are happy to take from the other OSS efforts but you are not happy to give back, or contribute back to them on a similarly open basis. (and "you can port it if you want it" doesn't count) The clearest example of this continues to be Monticello. When I do months of work and suffer considerably for the good of "everyone that wants change" of which you were one person at the top of the list. I do the work out of the goodness of my heart because I expect in the ethos of open source software that there is some give and take. "Take" because I build on the work of others that freely contributed to me, and "give" because I contribute to the furtherment of the vision that they started, and "take" again because I anticipate others continuing the good fight in the long run on everyones behalf. Given a completely open independent project, that you are invited to support and contribute to, on which much work has already been done "on YOUR behalf", in the direction of "YOUR goals". I consider it to be extremely rude and insulting, for you not to join in and further your own aims by contributing positively back to that project. The reason that I have no interest in participating in pharo, is not that I dont agree with the vision. Its the fact that I find the attitude of the pharo team (with a couple of notable exceptions) to be extremely rude. Perhaps its a cultural thing. I consider the attitude conveyed by the words "No but we have the right to choose and consider if we like it or not." to be tantamount to snobbery, when the option and invitation is completely open for you to participate and make it as likeable as you wish. It is perfectly possible for the following projects to be initiated as loadable modular sub-projects, developed with an ethos of participation for anyone to contribute and for anyone to use. 1. Registration for menus and UI features 2. Improvements to Streams 3. HTTPSocket 4. Alternatives to Changesets 5. Replace the changes file mechanism with something else 6. Atomic loading (including traits) 7. Replacements for Morphic, MVP 8. Compiler 9. Network. 10. Compression. 11. Files 12. SSpec 13. SUnit 14. Code Browsers/Tools I am seriously considering licencing Rio under something other than MIT, so that you cant use it, until you change your attitude towards your potential benefactors. Keith

March 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] How to rename a package ?

by Lukas Renggli

> Why don't we add it to MC? I am not a big fan of random untested scripts on classes somewhere in the system. They rot very fast and people won't find and know how to use them. I don't really see the relation of MCWorkingCopy to unpackaged code. For me is more like a possible bug that can be detected by a system like Code Critics. Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

March 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] I need some advice (was Re: [squeak-dev] Organising and Documenting Micro-Universes in Squeaksource)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>> > +1 > i think making squeak compatible with outer world (use ascii ':=' > instead of unicode '<-' and enable to use '_' in selectors and > variables) is better than trying to be 'compatible' with 20 years old > dusty stuff. Yeap. I dream about a Smalltalk that we can script, embed into c application, talk well to c libraries, have nice libraries, tested....with nice mop, So let us try to focus on that Stef

March 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] How to rename a package ?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

lukas Why don't we add it to MC? Because it may make people think that they can rename a package and do not lose ancestry. Stef On Mar 20, 2009, at 5:25 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> Why why why is the default position of whoever wrote the above code >> to >> NOT contribute to the community? I dont get it. For me it would be >> the >> first thought that enters my mind... "perhaps someone else might find >> this useful". > > Thank you for this excellent idea. > > I added it as a Code Critics rule called 'Unpackaged Code'. > > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

March 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [vwnc] Would you start a new Smalltalk project today?

by Philippe Marschall

Michael van der Gulik wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Michael van der Gulik > <mikevdg(a)gmail.com > <mailto:mikevdg@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > If you want to use multiple CPU cores, I believe that ST/X and > Gemstone both do this. I haven't tried though. > > Smalltalk/X: http://www.exept.de/ > Gemstone: http://seaside.gemstone.com/ > > > I'm sorry, I lied. > > Smalltalk/X can /not/ use multiple cores. I tried it on a dual-core > system; only one core was used :-(. > > So now it seems that Gemstone is the only multi-core capable Smalltalk > VM :-(. AFAIK Gemstone isn't multi-core capable as well. You can just run multiple gems and they share the same persistent memory. Which is similar but different. Philippe

March 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] I need some advice (was Re: [squeak-dev] Organising and Documenting Micro-Universes in Squeaksource)

by Igor Stasenko

2009/3/20 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >>> >> Perhaps you need healing from your fear of conflict. Ask your mind to >> reveal to you where it was you learned this emotional pattern. (its >> not >> one I have ;-) ) > > keith this is much more simple than that. > I'm doing pharo just to avoid the endless discussions on "I need arrow > for assignment". > I have nearly 20 years of brain cells now if I do not die before so I > do not want to > spend my time on boring stuff when I can avoid it. > >> Another case in point, on my to do list for squeak is "a registration >> mechanism for menus/flaps etc". There is absolutely NO reason why >> such a >> mechanism shouldnt be specced out and developed as a loadable module >> for >> all squeak forks to adopt. > > Exact. Now the point is that we do not want to keep extra layer of > compatibility for the sake > of it. > +1 i think making squeak compatible with outer world (use ascii ':=' instead of unicode '<-' and enable to use '_' in selectors and variables) is better than trying to be 'compatible' with 20 years old dusty stuff. >> Do we have to have 2 of absolutely everything? > > No but we have the right to choose and consider if we like it or not. > > Stef > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

March 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] I need some advice (was Re: [squeak-dev] Organising and Documenting Micro-Universes in Squeaksource)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>> > Perhaps you need healing from your fear of conflict. Ask your mind to > reveal to you where it was you learned this emotional pattern. (its > not > one I have ;-) ) keith this is much more simple than that. I'm doing pharo just to avoid the endless discussions on "I need arrow for assignment". I have nearly 20 years of brain cells now if I do not die before so I do not want to spend my time on boring stuff when I can avoid it. > Another case in point, on my to do list for squeak is "a registration > mechanism for menus/flaps etc". There is absolutely NO reason why > such a > mechanism shouldnt be specced out and developed as a loadable module > for > all squeak forks to adopt. Exact. Now the point is that we do not want to keep extra layer of compatibility for the sake of it. > Do we have to have 2 of absolutely everything? No but we have the right to choose and consider if we like it or not. Stef

March 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] How to rename a package ?

by Keith Hodges

Lukas Renggli wrote: >> Why why why is the default position of whoever wrote the above code to >> NOT contribute to the community? I dont get it. For me it would be the >> first thought that enters my mind... "perhaps someone else might find >> this useful". >> > > Thank you for this excellent idea. > > I added it as a Code Critics rule called 'Unpackaged Code'. > > Lukas > Good for you, but I dont use code critics. I cant manage to work out OB, it just seems completely unusable to me (some docs would be nice). So thats code critic outs as well I guess. Keith

March 20, 2009