March 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Namespaces for Squeak

by Markus Fritsche

StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Note that I do not want to argue on the necessity of namespace because we > will hit the wall one of these days without them. Which walls? Ambiguity?

March 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Filing in lost changes is broken?

by Oscar Nierstrasz

OK, I added an issue. It only seems to happen when you use the "define new class" option whil eevaluating an expression. I also discovered the "browse it" is broken for unpackaged classes. Added an issue for that too. - on On 2009 -03-28, at 9:00 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > can you open a ticket? > or check that one is not already open. > We will have to fix that. > > Stef > > On Mar 27, 2009, at 4:22 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: > >> >> OK, I tried now with the latest version. >> >> I evaluate "Demo new hello" in a workspace, implement the class and >> the method form the debugger, then quit the image. >> >> When I try to recover the lost changes, the methods are there, but >> the >> doit to create the class is missing. >> >> It seems that creating classes is not always logged in the changes >> file ... >> >> - on >> >> >> On Mar 27, 2009, at 13:55, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> >>> Hi oscar >>> >>> did you use the last version? >>> >>> I noticed that running the tests (probably one by one) polluted the >>> cs. >>> >>> stef >>> >>>> I tried to recover changes after a crash yesterday and could not. >>>> >>>> I just experimented to verify this: >>>> >>>> - open a fresh image and rename it >>>> - create a class with a hello world method >>>> - quit without saving >>>> - restart the image >>>> - Tools > Recover lost changes will show you the changes >>>> - Select and file in does not work >>>> >>>> Is this an issue, or am I doing something wrong? >>>> >>>> - on >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

March 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Namespaces for Squeak

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

yes so this is why we should keep an eye on names.html stef On Mar 28, 2009, at 9:44 AM, Michael van der Gulik wrote: > On 3/28/09, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 6:17 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr >>> wrote: >> >>> Thanks >>> see http://www.squeaksource.com/Namespace.html we did that some >>> years >>> ago >>> But we have to change its design because we separated trait/class/ >>> global binding and it was not good. > <snip> >> >> There is also this: http://gulik.pbwiki.com/Namespaces > > This package is a bit too radical for Pharo. It's a complete redesign > for how code refers to classes and global variables and how code is > packaged. > > Gulik. > > -- > http://gulik.pbwiki.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

March 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Better documenting and consistency

by Serge Stinckwich

On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 12:51 AM, Robert Peters <thewinterlion(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I agree with this sentiment. Â I have been trying to learn Smalltalk with the help of 'Squeak by Example', but while it is a good read, it is almost useless as a reference. You mean a book with a list of all the classes and methods ? The problem is that this list depends on the classes loaded in your image. > When I have a Python issue, I type (for example), "initialize multi-dimensional array Python" into Google and get 14,000 responses. Â Replace 'Python' with 'Smalltalk' and I get 2,000, most of which aren't about Smalltalk, and I still haven't found a code example. You need something like a Smalltalk cookbook ? > There are a number of books on-line, but some don't even have tables of contents or indexes, and they're all in .pdf, which makes them extremely cumbersome to use as references. > > I, of course, only speak for myself, but I am officially closing my current foray into Smalltalk. Â It's too hard to learn. Â There's not adequate reference material. Â There are very few code examples. In fact the examples are inside a Smalltak image. You have to explore and learn by reading the code. > If, at some point in the future, Smalltalk becomes easier to learn, I will try again. Â Until then, I'm going back to Python. The main problem is that the Smalltalk community is much smaller than the Python, so it's more difficult to find people who are able to wrote tutorials and books. People like StÃ©phane and others have already great efforts to wrote books like "Squeak by Example", "Squeak: learn programming with robots", ... Most of these books are available freely on the web. Ask also the publishers to publish Smalltalk books. They just want to publish mainstream stuff ... > I mentioned on the Pharo IRC channel that I was a Django developer, and would consider building a site to assist with getting the material inside these books onto the web, and I will continue to think about that. Â If there's any interest, please let me know. Most of the book are available as pdf files but you need the authors and editors permissions to diffuse them in another format. Maybe some of there is no copyright issues with some of the books, we can make some wikibooks from them. Best regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)] http://doesnotunderstand.org/

March 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Namespaces for Squeak

by Michael van der Gulik

On 3/28/09, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 6:17 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr >> wrote: > >> Thanks >> see http://www.squeaksource.com/Namespace.html we did that some years >> ago >> But we have to change its design because we separated trait/class/ >> global binding and it was not good. <snip> > > There is also this: http://gulik.pbwiki.com/Namespaces This package is a bit too radical for Pharo. It's a complete redesign for how code refers to classes and global variables and how code is packaged. Gulik. -- http://gulik.pbwiki.com/

March 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Namespaces for Squeak

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

What do you mean by me too? We need namespace but we have to think about the design so implementing that package was a way to learn and see. Now because this is more than 6 years that we are thinking (working with VW) looking at Java and others I have build a kind of taste and it lets me understand and appreciate the design of the one proposed by andreas. Note that I do not want to argue on the necessity of namespace because we will hit the wall one of these days without them. Stef > StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> Thanks see http://www.squeaksource.com/Namespace.html we did that >> some >> years ago > > Did it solve real-word-problems? Did it leverage new productivity/ > semantics? Or was it just "me too"? > > -- > Zitat B. Zypries: Es gehe um die Frage: âWie kÃ¶nnen wir verhindern, > dass deutsche Internetbenutzer auf auslÃ¤ndische Seiten gehen.â > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

March 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Better documenting and consistency

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

you can also use the smalltalk tools. senders. implementers message tools we say that a guy is ok in smalltalk when he understand senders and implementors. Now you can also send this kind of message to the squeak and smalltalk community because I should be guy that wrote the larger number of smalltalk book so I do not know how I could do more. Stef On Mar 27, 2009, at 6:51 PM, Robert Peters wrote: > > I agree with this sentiment. I have been trying to learn Smalltalk > with the help of 'Squeak by Example', but while it is a good read, > it is almost useless as a reference. > > When I have a Python issue, I type (for example), "initialize multi- > dimensional array Python" into Google and get 14,000 responses. > Replace 'Python' with 'Smalltalk' and I get 2,000, most of which > aren't about Smalltalk, and I still haven't found a code example. > > There are a number of books on-line, but some don't even have tables > of contents or indexes, and they're all in .pdf, which makes them > extremely cumbersome to use as references. > > I, of course, only speak for myself, but I am officially closing my > current foray into Smalltalk. It's too hard to learn. There's not > adequate reference material. There are very few code examples. > > If, at some point in the future, Smalltalk becomes easier to learn, > I will try again. Until then, I'm going back to Python. > > I mentioned on the Pharo IRC channel that I was a Django developer, > and would consider building a site to assist with getting the > material inside these books onto the web, and I will continue to > think about that. If there's any interest, please let me know. > > Kind regards, > Robert Peters > > > Having better comment than > buildWith: aBuilder > ^self subclassResponsibility > > is needed if we want to continue to bash Java people. > So what do we do? > Stef > > > -- > View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Better-documenting-and-consistency-tp2542850p2545717.h… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

March 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Filing in lost changes is broken?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

can you open a ticket? or check that one is not already open. We will have to fix that. Stef On Mar 27, 2009, at 4:22 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: > > OK, I tried now with the latest version. > > I evaluate "Demo new hello" in a workspace, implement the class and > the method form the debugger, then quit the image. > > When I try to recover the lost changes, the methods are there, but the > doit to create the class is missing. > > It seems that creating classes is not always logged in the changes > file ... > > - on > > > On Mar 27, 2009, at 13:55, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >> Hi oscar >> >> did you use the last version? >> >> I noticed that running the tests (probably one by one) polluted the >> cs. >> >> stef >> >>> I tried to recover changes after a crash yesterday and could not. >>> >>> I just experimented to verify this: >>> >>> - open a fresh image and rename it >>> - create a class with a hello world method >>> - quit without saving >>> - restart the image >>> - Tools > Recover lost changes will show you the changes >>> - Select and file in does not work >>> >>> Is this an issue, or am I doing something wrong? >>> >>> - on >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

March 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Namespaces for Squeak

by Markus Fritsche

StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Thanks see http://www.squeaksource.com/Namespace.html we did that some > years ago Did it solve real-word-problems? Did it leverage new productivity/ semantics? Or was it just "me too"? -- Zitat B. Zypries: Es gehe um die Frage: âWie kÃ¶nnen wir verhindern, dass deutsche Internetbenutzer auf auslÃ¤ndische Seiten gehen.â

March 28, 2009

[Pharo-project] Packages

by Alexandre Bergel

Dear List, What is the difference between NamedEntity>>parentPackage, NamedEntity>>belongsTo and container ? I guess one should be for the package, and another one for the namespace. But a third? Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

March 27, 2009