December 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo for Professional Development

by Marcus Denker

On Dec 18, 2009, at 1:23 PM, Bart Gauquie wrote: > > Concerning the parts that are lacking tests. We have a rule to test everything. We have the rule to do something, even if what we do it is not perfect. The idea to request a test for everything does not work. And in addition, even tests do no guarantee that a change will have no impact. Marcus

Dec. 18, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo for Professional Development

by Marcus Denker

On Dec 18, 2009, at 1:10 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: >> >> I think that in Pharo most of the tests are unit tests. Please correct if I'm wrong, don't know it well enough yet. Each package is perfectly unit tested. > > No, no package is perfectly unit-tested. Not even close. For some things there a no tests at all. > This is even phrased too positively: For *almost everthing*, there are no tests. In addition, the code base is *a mess of epic proportion*. Normal rules do not apply. Marcus

Dec. 18, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo for Professional Development

by George Herolyants

2009/12/18 Michael Rueger <m.rueger(a)acm.org>: > Henrik Johansen wrote: > > Interestingly enough a lot of the (complex) multiple native window > applications have (gone back to) all in one window UIs (Eclipse, all of > the Adobe products, ...). Yeah! That's true. And their look&feel may differ from the underlying os. And everyone uses them without complaining. So what's wrong with pharo? Maybe one of the weak points is that it simulates windowing system inside another one, when other applications (Eclipse, Netbeans...) have strongly defined layout (though customizable)? I think it's a real issue. Pharo Development Environment is *Integrated* but the UI still lacks this integration in some places, IMHO. But I think multiple windows in the meaning of what for example firefox has will be helpful as well. I mean two or more usual pharo windows "connected" to the same image. Is that possible? And native basic dialogs may be helpful too, to not reinvent the wheel (aka FileBrowser :). I vote for the WhiskerBrowser with all the cool OB stuff integrated! ;) Cheers, George

Dec. 18, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Rome port

by Tudor Girba

Hi, Thanks, but the packages do not seem to load either: - in 10496dev I can load Graphics-MichaelRueger.168 and FreeType- MichaelRueger.498, but when I try to load Rome, I get "This package depends on the following classes: RomePath RomeReferenceCanvas ... " - in 10500dev the image crashes when I try to load Graphics- MichaelRueger.168 What am I doing wrong? Cheers, Doru On 18 Dec 2009, at 13:12, Simon Denier wrote: > > On 18 dÃ©c. 2009, at 13:03, Tudor Girba wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I am a bit confused :). This link seems to not work: >>>>>> https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/25047/ >>>>>> RomePlugin.bundle.zip >>>> >> >> What exactly should I do if I wanted to get Rome in 1.0 using a 4.2.2 >> VM? > > > You just need to install the packages indicated by Michael, the > plugin is already there. It works for me. > > >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> >> On 17 Dec 2009, at 20:33, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> >>> Thanks john >>> >>> I deleted the plugging file. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> On Dec 17, 2009, at 6:46 PM, John M McIntosh wrote: >>> >>>> Ya, for years now I've shipped the latest Rome plugin, which BTW I >>>> did compile, >>>> within the Squeak macintosh carbon VM. >>>> >>>> It's version 1.2.1 >>>> >>>> Likely the one https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/25047/RomePlugin.bundle.zip >>>> should disappear to avoid confusion. Just use a 4.2.2 VM >>>> >>>> I'll add building a RomePlugin for Squeak V5.0 to my list of >>>> things to do for Christmas. >>>> >>>> On 2009-12-17, at 9:38 AM, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>> >>>>> Michael, this is an excellent start! >>>>> Thanks for this. This is important. >>>>> >>>>>> You will need the RomePlugin for your platform. >>>>>> https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/25047/ >>>>>> RomePlugin.bundle.zip >>>>>> https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/25046/rome.zip >>>>> >>>>> There is a plugin next to the MacOSX VM. I do not know whether >>>>> this is >>>>> the same version of the plugin >>>> >>>> -- >>>> = >>>> = >>>> = >>>> = >>>> = >>>> = >>>> = >>>> = >>>> =================================================================== >>>> John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: >>>> squeaker68882 >>>> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com >>>> = >>>> = >>>> = >>>> = >>>> = >>>> = >>>> = >>>> = >>>> =================================================================== >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Don't give to get. Just give." >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > Simon > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- www.tudorgirba.com "One cannot do more than one can do."

Dec. 18, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo for Professional Development

by Bart Gauquie

> > > The dev build really misses a process like the core build has with > integrators. But we can not mimic this process in dev since it integrates > external packages, whose developers are sometimes not concerned with Pharo. > I volunteer for that. > > That is true. However, since Pharo chooses external packages and offers them as a dev package, it is the task/responsability of Pharo initiative to make sure they work together. I'm extremely lazy but a huge fan of automation. Instead of clicking in Pharo manually and checking if the basic stuff is still working; why don't write a testcase which does that for you. Make a little more effort once and then just be lazy and exploit that effort afterwards. Since Pharo is dynamic, everything is an object, it is possible to test anything. We can create a sort of Pharo-Dev-Integration-Tests package containing a limited set of Integration tests. I will try to create a testcase for the bug I mentioned. Concerning the parts that are lacking tests. We have a rule to test everything. If you want to adapt something and you find that there is no test, you write a test first for the existing functionality; make sure it runs, add extra test for new functionality, ... . You certainly write a test if a bug occurred in something. So you don't need to do an effort to try to test everything. If something is working untested, and you don't need to change it: why spent effort in writing tests for it? Only if you change it, you add tests for it. Kind Regards, Bart

Dec. 18, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Rome port

by Simon Denier

On 18 dÃ©c. 2009, at 13:03, Tudor Girba wrote: > Hi, > > I am a bit confused :). This link seems to not work: >>>>> https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/25047/ >>>>> RomePlugin.bundle.zip >>> > > What exactly should I do if I wanted to get Rome in 1.0 using a 4.2.2 > VM? You just need to install the packages indicated by Michael, the plugin is already there. It works for me. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > On 17 Dec 2009, at 20:33, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >> Thanks john >> >> I deleted the plugging file. >> >> Stef >> >> On Dec 17, 2009, at 6:46 PM, John M McIntosh wrote: >> >>> Ya, for years now I've shipped the latest Rome plugin, which BTW I >>> did compile, >>> within the Squeak macintosh carbon VM. >>> >>> It's version 1.2.1 >>> >>> Likely the one https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/25047/RomePlugin.bundle.zip >>> should disappear to avoid confusion. Just use a 4.2.2 VM >>> >>> I'll add building a RomePlugin for Squeak V5.0 to my list of >>> things to do for Christmas. >>> >>> On 2009-12-17, at 9:38 AM, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>> >>>> Michael, this is an excellent start! >>>> Thanks for this. This is important. >>>> >>>>> You will need the RomePlugin for your platform. >>>>> https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/25047/ >>>>> RomePlugin.bundle.zip >>>>> https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/25046/rome.zip >>>> >>>> There is a plugin next to the MacOSX VM. I do not know whether >>>> this is >>>> the same version of the plugin >>> >>> -- >>> = >>> = >>> = >>> = >>> = >>> = >>> ===================================================================== >>> John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: >>> squeaker68882 >>> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com >>> = >>> = >>> = >>> = >>> = >>> = >>> ===================================================================== >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Don't give to get. Just give." > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Simon

Dec. 18, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo for Professional Development

by Simon Denier

On 18 dÃ©c. 2009, at 11:36, Bart Gauquie wrote: > > > I think we should rename 1.1. It's not #alpha, it's #unstable. > > Marcus > _______________________________________________ > > > I think thats a bad idea. Pharo should also set a standard on stability. It's even in the mission statement: 'By providing a stable and small core system, excellent developer tools, and maintained releases'. > Stability means that the 'nightly build' just works: all existing things work as expected, new things in development already partly work. > > Would it not be arrogantly nice to be so confident in the system, that you can just take the latest release and no errors occur ? We dont have the resources for that right now. It requires much more tests (especially for a dynamic system), build and test server, also rule and quality checks, and even with that you cant declare it as stable. Eclipse nightly builds are tested automatically, but are never declared as stable. See http://download.eclipse.org/eclipse/downloads/build_types.html (yeah, I have a tendency to look up at eclipse whenever it comes to good process) One thing we could do now is better 'monkey testing' of dev versions. Whenever Damien makes a new release, some people could check that the tools work with this release by testing basic, common features. Then they report what works and does not work for the given release. At least people would be aware of the shortcomings. The dev build really misses a process like the core build has with integrators. But we can not mimic this process in dev since it integrates external packages, whose developers are sometimes not concerned with Pharo. I volunteer for that. > > Just a thought, > > Kind Regards, > > Bart > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Simon

Dec. 18, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo for Professional Development

by Marcus Denker

On Dec 18, 2009, at 1:05 PM, Bart Gauquie wrote: > Hi Marcus, > > There is no release yet! > > How often are you planning to do a release? I suppose the next release is the reached milestones for 1.1? > Yes, this will be ready in a couple of months. > > > I think that in Pharo most of the tests are unit tests. Please correct if I'm wrong, don't know it well enough yet. Each package is perfectly unit tested. No, no package is perfectly unit-tested. Not even close. For some things there a no tests at all. Marcus

Dec. 18, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo for Professional Development

by Bart Gauquie

Hi Marcus, There is no release yet! > How often are you planning to do a release? I suppose the next release is the reached milestones for 1.1? > > > everything that worked before should still work perfectly. The new stuff > being added are first buggy; seems normal to me. But if the new stuff is > breaking old, working stuff, and we only notice it after a month; then it > will take us a lot of time, debugging the issues, investigating them; time > we should spent instead on adding new stuff. > > The old stuff is *very very bad*. It needs to be fixed. This is when stuff > breaks. > Absolutely. > > > > > > |I've done a number of production applications in Squeak and we always > > |used the stable version for that. Or, in case we really needed > something > > |from the trunk version, we only updated occasionally when we were sure > > |it had reached a somewhat stable plateau. > > > > You're correct on this one, however in this case, Pharo IS the production > work. It is Pharo itself we are also developing. And since it is > development, I think we should make sure the quality keeps up at a highest > level possible, even if modifying it. > > > > I don't mean to criticize, I love the opensource initiative that Pharo > is, I'm just trying to help Pharo further. > > Any other thoughts on this? > > > > I can not work on a system where every change on the unstable branch is > garanteed to not break anything. > That is because I don't know how this is possible to do. > > Marcus Allow me to explain why I have such strong beliefs about this. On my firm, we are using some techniques to enable that. On one project they are releasing new functionality every two weeks. How they do that is as following. These 2 weeks releases are incremental changes to a already running production system. They take a limited set of functionality that can be developed in say just over a week. Nightly builds are deployed on test servers. After a day or three development, parts of the developed functionality can already be tested by the proxy. After six or seven days of development, the core dev is done, and they focus on fixing the errors. After a day or two more the whole stuff is developed, tested en ready for production. The main reason why this works pretty well, is that they take small steps. They set a target to develop a limited set of functionality, and commit to it as a team. Furthermore they use extensive testing. They write unit tests for every line of code written and also write integration tests. The product developed is a web application. They use a rich domain and a sql db. They write extensive unit tests for the functionality of the domain; write one integration test if the domain object can be persisted correctly, and write also a limited set of gui tests using selenium, to verify if the gui is working correctly. The amount of unit tests is very high, the amount of integration tests / gui tests much lower. The unit tests serve to test the core behaviour, the other tests more or less if 'everything is wired correctly'. Working like this, they have a high confidence in the code; they get immediate feedback if something broke: so they can fix these errors quickly. The small steps combined with the extensive testing is what enables us to create these short releases. If they would try to integrate a lot of changes at once, it would take them a lot longer to make that stable. We call every build, in which all tests run, 'a potential shippable product'. I think that in Pharo most of the tests are unit tests. Please correct if I'm wrong, don't know it well enough yet. Each package is perfectly unit tested. However the dev image which tries to integrate different packages is, I think, lacking integration tests to see if they properly work together. Take the example I gave. Refactoring tools work very well, are nicely unit tested; however combined with the Package browser it did not work. The net result of it is that it does not work. Now I off course understand that, since Pharo is opensource and community driven, it will be a lot harder to achieve a short release period than doing this on my firm, full time developing on the product. These are just my views I use in my day 2 day work. Kind Regards, Bart -- imagination is more important than knowledge - Albert Einstein Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere - Albert Einstein Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination. - Albert Einstein Gravitation is not responsible for people falling in love. - Albert Einstein

Dec. 18, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Rome port

by Tudor Girba

Hi, I am a bit confused :). This link seems to not work: >>>> https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/25047/ >>>> RomePlugin.bundle.zip >> What exactly should I do if I wanted to get Rome in 1.0 using a 4.2.2 VM? Cheers, Doru On 17 Dec 2009, at 20:33, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > Thanks john > > I deleted the plugging file. > > Stef > > On Dec 17, 2009, at 6:46 PM, John M McIntosh wrote: > >> Ya, for years now I've shipped the latest Rome plugin, which BTW I >> did compile, >> within the Squeak macintosh carbon VM. >> >> It's version 1.2.1 >> >> Likely the one https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/25047/RomePlugin.bundle.zip >> should disappear to avoid confusion. Just use a 4.2.2 VM >> >> I'll add building a RomePlugin for Squeak V5.0 to my list of >> things to do for Christmas. >> >> On 2009-12-17, at 9:38 AM, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >> >>> Michael, this is an excellent start! >>> Thanks for this. This is important. >>> >>>> You will need the RomePlugin for your platform. >>>> https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/25047/ >>>> RomePlugin.bundle.zip >>>> https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/25046/rome.zip >>> >>> There is a plugin next to the MacOSX VM. I do not know whether >>> this is >>> the same version of the plugin >> >> -- >> = >> = >> = >> = >> = >> = >> ===================================================================== >> John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: >> squeaker68882 >> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com >> = >> = >> = >> = >> = >> = >> ===================================================================== >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- www.tudorgirba.com "Don't give to get. Just give."

Dec. 18, 2009