December 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] We need to do something, seriously!!!! [WAS] Fwd: Issue 1721: Refactoring appears to be broken in web dev image. e.g. OBClassNode(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #dynamicProtocols

by Bart Gauquie

I highly agree also !! Its related to Pharo for Professional Development<http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2009-December/017583.h…>thread I started 2 weeks ago. It basically says the same. My gut feeling is still that stability should be the number one focus. Its great to innovate, but innovation must not harm stability. For me stability is keeping regression bugs to a minimum. To test the stability of the GUI/Morphic parts of Pharo, I started to create a little project: http://www.squeaksource.com/MorphicsRecordNPlay/. This can record mouse events and replay them afterwards. My idea was to take this as a sort of automated integration testing of Pharo. You can then record all kinds of stuff: opening a browser, clicking on a class, try every option out, ... . I've also attempted to automatically convert these recordings into sunit test cases so they can be automatically replayed, but I stumbled upon following limitation : Long method can not be compiled using #compile: aString<http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2009-December/017730.h…>. Havent looked into it further yet. Any ideas here how these can be replayed? Kind Regards, Bart 2009/12/30 Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> > Hi folks. I am really concerned about the instability of the dev and web > images. WE CANNOT RELEASE a RC where you cannot even double click in a > class. This cannot happens. We all know that all software can have bugs. But > again, we cannot release images, and even RC images, which are supposed to > be quite stable, where you cannot right click a class, you cannot refactor, > you cannot even right click in the code pane. And don't told me "I use the > keyboard" because I don't care what you do. A lot of people use the mouse. > > I have already said it several times. Most of the people don't care how > nice, fast, clean, open source and well programmed is the Pharo Core image > if they cannot use the Dev or Web image. > > Remember that our users are external users, you even don't care about the > core. They just use Pharo, they are not developers. > > I really think we need to fix this. You are giving a bad impression of > something which is not true. You are doing AN EXCELLENT work with PharoCore. > Why to wast all of this for this kind of situations? It is a pity :( > > I don't know the best solution for this. I will only give an idea I have, > but I would really like to hear you ideas and do something with this. > > 1) We are building a dev image per month more or lest. 5 days before en of > months (more or less), the dev image should be built. > > 2) During 5 years, some people will use that image as a beta tester. I > would ideally to have different users: different OS, different browsers, > etc. > This people will use that image for their work for those 5 days and report > any bug that appears. Of course, not all people can do that. > How is volunteer to be beta tester ? We can create a wiki page for that if > you are agree with the idea. > > 3) After those 5 days, if the image is stable enough, it is released. If it > is not, it is just not released. Nobody will kill you if one month you don't > release a new image. In addition, is better not to release an unstable image > that releasing it and not be able to do a single right click. > > In Canonical, all the employees MUST to use for one month or more each > Ubuntu release. We are not employee, but we can do something similar. > > What do you think ? > > Cheers > > Mariano > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Stan Shepherd <stan.shepherd414(a)gmail.com> > Date: Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:26 PM > Subject: [Pharo-project] Issue 1721: Refactoring appears to be broken in > web dev image. e.g. OBClassNode(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: > #dynamicProtocols > To: pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > > > NB this logs a particular walkback, but the whole area appears to be > unworkable in the web dev image. Please could the maintainers click, right > click, middle click on each part of refactoring browser, take each menu > item, etc. This will be much quicker than logging one bug at a time. > If this turns out to be the last one, my apologies in advance. > Thanks. ...Stan > > > VM: unix - i686 - linux-gnu - Pharo0.1 of 16 May 2008 [latest update: > #10074] > Image: PharoCore1.0rc1 [Latest update: #10502] pharo1.0-10502-rc1web09.12.2 > > Class browser used (if applicable): OR2PackageBrowser. > > OBClassNode(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #dynamicProtocols > Receiver: OBClassNode<ShortIntegerArray> > Arguments and temporary variables: > aMessage: dynamicProtocols > exception: MessageNotUnderstood: > OBClassNode>>dynamicProtocols > resumeValue: nil > Receiver's instance variables: > metaNode: Class > #allCategory->AllMethodCategory > #categories->MethodCategory > #dy...etc... > navigation: an O2DefaultEdgeNavigation > theClass: ShortIntegerArray > > O2MetaEdge>>nodesForParent: > Receiver: #dynamicProtocols->DynamicProtocols > Arguments and temporary variables: > aNode: OBClassNode<ShortIntegerArray> > Receiver's instance variables: > label: 'dynamicProtocols' > selector: #dynamicProtocols > metaNode: DynamicProtocols > #methods->Method > > navigation: an O2DefaultEdgeNavigation > isDropEdge: nil > > ... > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/Issue-1721-Refactoring-appears-to-be-broken-in-web-dev… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- imagination is more important than knowledge - Albert Einstein Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere - Albert Einstein Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination. - Albert Einstein However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Sir Winston Churchill It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required. - Sir Winston Churchill

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: 2GB changes file and a pony (was: [squeak-dev] ALL CLEAR (Re: CompiledMethodTrailers ready for use))

by Marcus Denker

On Dec 28, 2009, at 11:27 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > Yes :) > > Marcus would like to have code inside the image... since a couple of years :) yes... Klaus Witzel worked on this some years ago (I think even after I told him that this would be high on my list... Klaus used to live in Bern and visited the Squeak meeting there regularly.) This did not make it into 3.9... we ran a bit out of steam at the end :-) Maybe I should explain that I did 3.9 in parallel to my PhD work. Unpayed, with no hidden side agenda other than the realization that one can't invent the future if one can not even fix a typo in a comment. I think one could critisize that I just integrated other peoples fixes... but that had multiple reasons: 1) Focus was on the PhD.... and doing all these boring things that are a lot of work that one needs to do to have a future in Research. 2) Of what use is it to do some cool enancement for Squeak if chances of integration are zero? I never understood the brave people who did sent patch after patch with almost nothing ending up in the system. 3) Integrating is far less trivial than people might think. Integrating is especially difficult in a system "with a history" like Squeak. But in the end, I think we did a good job with 3.9. Regardless of what people said afterwards... I guess now everyone agrees, after all those evil things we did that people crucified us for turned out to be not that bad after all. Marcus

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo-beginner mailing list ?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:38 PM, csrabak(a)bol.com.br wrote: > I come a little late for comment (hard day :-( ) so, I'll take profit of Stef's remarks to bring up an ancillary question to the group. > > Letting out the humble inclusions of a lot of hot shot programmers as "beginners" and trying this from a Requirements Elicitation exercise: > > What will we consider a *beginner*? everybody that want to be considered as - not knowing smalltalk - not knowing pharo - programming language learner. Stef > > People that never learned a programming language and need tutoring in basics? > > People that know other programming languages? Being so shall separate the efforts to teach the ones that know OO from the ones are knowledgeable in procedural onesÂ¹? > > People already knowing Smalltalk but new to Pharo? > > I feel that in addition to mailing list (and perhaps newsgroup), we should assemble a CMS for spreading the basics and using the features of the system to direct prospective users according to their needs/wishes. > > my 0.019999.... > > -- > Cesar Rabak > > > [1] This angst was triggered attending to a speech in Smalltalks 2009 > > > Em 30/12/2009 10:42, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > escreveu: > > > Ok > (we are all beginners :) at least I'm :) ). > > > On Dec 30, 2009, at 1:35 PM, George Herolyants wrote: > >> Hi >> >> Maybe it would be better to name it pharo-user(s) and leave this list >> for the developers of pharo? Because "beginner" has too narrow >> meaning. >> >> >> George >> >> 2009/12/30 StÃ©phane Ducasse : >>> Hi all >>> >>> I remember that the squeak-beginner mailing-list (our ideas) was a huge success >>> since it enabled people to ask questions and have less mails. >>> So a question to you: do you think that it would be good to have a pharo-beginner mailing list? >>> >>> Stef >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo-beginner mailing list ?

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

I _think_ it is a lot of hours of work. Once the mailing list starts, we'll to monitor it. With some periodicity we should assemble a FAQ, also because the proper nature of the list it is possible incorrect advice be posted by other members and we need to monitor and suggest the correct content as well. Thinking in retrospect I believe this should be launched when we have Pharo 1.0 released and we can stabilize documentation, procedures, etc. my 0.019999... -- Cesar Rabak Em 30/12/2009 14:16, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com > escreveu: +1Â I would create it. It is not more than 1 hour or so of work. We don't loose nothing. Only the time will say if this was a good idea or not :) On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Miguel CobÃ¡ <miguel.coba(a)gmail.com> wrote: +1 Its ok to separate the development of pharo from the use/promotion/welcome to Pharo. Just don't let this become a mess with dozens of lists with a couple of posts each. This won't help Pharo cohesion in the long term. Miguel CobÃ¡ On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 5:41 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hi all > > I remember that the squeak-beginner mailing-list (our ideas) was a huge success > since it enabled people to ask questions and have less mails. > So a question to you: do you think that it would be good to have a pharo-beginner mailing list? > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo-beginner mailing list ?

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

I come a little late for comment (hard day :-( ) so, I'll take profit of Stef's remarks to bring up an ancillary question to the group. Letting out the humble inclusions of a lot of hot shot programmers as "beginners" and trying this from a Requirements Elicitation exercise: What will we consider a *beginner*? People that never learned a programming language and need tutoring in basics? People that know other programming languages? Being so shall separate the efforts to teach the ones that know OO from the ones are knowledgeable in procedural onesÂ¹? People already knowing Smalltalk but new to Pharo? I feel that in addition to mailing list (and perhaps newsgroup), we should assemble a CMS for spreading the basics and using the features of the system to direct prospective users according to their needs/wishes. my 0.019999.... -- Cesar Rabak [1] This angst was triggered attending to a speech in Smalltalks 2009 Em 30/12/2009 10:42, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > escreveu: Ok (we are all beginners :) at least I'm :) ). On Dec 30, 2009, at 1:35 PM, George Herolyants wrote: > Hi > > Maybe it would be better to name it pharo-user(s) and leave this list > for the developers of pharo? Because "beginner" has too narrow > meaning. > > > George > > 2009/12/30 StÃ©phane Ducasse : >> Hi all >> >> I remember that the squeak-beginner mailing-list (our ideas) was a huge success >> since it enabled people to ask questions and have less mails. >> So a question to you: do you think that it would be good to have a pharo-beginner mailing list? >> >> Stef >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] We need to do something, seriously!!!! [WAS] Fwd: Issue 1721: Refactoring appears to be broken in web dev image. e.g. OBClassNode(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #dynamicProtocols

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>> Thanks Lukas to be agree. I like your scripts, but the problem is that you >> use your own forked repository to get an stable version. I would love to >> have THAT, but in the original repositories. Examples: omnibrowser, >> unsorted, etc. Do you know how we can fix this ? > > Well, if you want to do a stable distribution you need to fork, even > if you just copy the versions to a separate repository. > > We learned this with Seaside 3.0alpha1 the hard way. Servers > disappear, repositories disappear, versions get deleted, versions get > renamed or replaced. When we release a Seaside version we always copy > all the dependencies to a single place that we control, e.g. > <http://builder.seaside.st/distributions/004-Seaside3.0.0-a5/>. oh yes we did the same with squeak3.9 and for pharo. Stef

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] We need to do something, seriously!!!! [WAS] Fwd: Issue 1721: Refactoring appears to be broken in web dev image. e.g. OBClassNode(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #dynamicProtocols

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Yes we should find somebody. I will ask around. Stef On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> Yes lukas now damien was nice to build the images because I could not do them. >> But damien is doing Java daily. > > Yes, I know. This is definitely not the fault of Damien, he is doing > an excellent job in integrating, merging and fixing the obvious bugs. > The problem is that nobody that uses the image 12 hours daily is > taking responsibility. > >> So I do not know what to do. >> - first we should add simple trait creation to the OB >> - now frankly I do not know how we could manage moose without the package browser. > > Then somebody that uses OB and Traits daily should commit on that. I > am not a trait user, so I can't help here. The same for the package > browser: I am pretty happy with OB, the package browser of > OB-Refactory, and Gofer to manage the 75 Seaside packages. > > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo-beginner mailing list ?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

sbe discussion is a list so that people can report problems and discuss with us. we have our own internal one for the books. Stef On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:57 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > Is there a specific mailing list for the PBE readers? ifFalse: this could be a good place where the readers can ask :) > I saw sbe-discussion(a)iam.unibe.ch but I am not sure what that mailing list it is about. Is it for final users of for the authors ? > > Cheers > > Mariano > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > yes ;) I was just explained why I said one hour :) > > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:46 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > ok let us wait to get more feedback on the idea... > > Stef > On Dec 30, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Johan Fabry <jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl> wrote: > > > > How do we subscribe? > > > > On 30 Dec 2009, at 14:09, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > > > > > My point is that some people may be bored by too technical discussions > > > Miguel I agree on the number of list. We should check if there is > > > enough people. > > > @Adrian: the forum idea is nice but I do not why it did not work for > > > Smalltalk. > > > I went to the site you mentioned but I could not get how it works. > > > > > >> +1 I would create it. It is not more than 1 hour or so of work. > > > 3min :) > > > > Yes, but after creating the list, I think you should also: > > > > - Send an ANN to this list, ESUG and even Squeak mailing lists. > > - Add that information to http://www.pharo-project.org/community > > - Add gmane and nabble bots to it > > - Some people can post in their blogs about it > > > > Cheers, > > > > Mariano > > > > > > > > -- > > Johan Fabry > > jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry > > PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] I have a problem with 11126

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Ok this is strange that the classVar was not removed in the cleanup. Anyway I will do it. this is cool to have such part of the system cleaned that way. Stef

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] We need to do something, seriously!!!! [WAS] Fwd: Issue 1721: Refactoring appears to be broken in web dev image. e.g. OBClassNode(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #dynamicProtocols

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Yes, I know Dale ;) But anyway, that's just a part. We still have several problems and needs: 1) We have different repositories for the same project. As the examples I did, we have omnibroswer in Lukas and wiresong. The same with other packages. So, we need someone who integrates and merges between them and we need to declare an official one. Who do this ? We need to define those integrators. 2) Metacello will load the packages, dependencies, etc. But anyway, someone need to REALLY test it. At least, a couple of days. And not only one person, several. Because someone may use the OB, other the O2, other is in Linux, other in Mac, etc etc etc. We need to define a list of beta testers. 3) We need to define official maintainers for each package we include in the official images. Suppose I am preparing the versions of Metacello. I DON'T KNOW WHICH VERSIONS SHOULD WORK. Assume that the last one is wrong. Sometimes there are "branchs" to support different Pharo images or whatever. So, I, Damein, or the person that prepare the Dev image must to ask to the maintainer about which is the stable version. And in order to do that, we need to define those maintainers. And also which repositories, as I said in 1). Ok...those are my thoughts Cheers Mariano On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 8:05 PM, Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemstone.com>wrote: > Metacello will be used to identify stable versions of the packages that are > known to work and there is an ongoing effort to create Metacello > configurations for all of the projects that go into the dev and web images. > > So that part of the puzzle is being addressed. > > Dale > > ----- "Mariano Martinez Peck" <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > | Thanks Lukas to be agree. I like your scripts, but the problem is that > | you > | use your own forked repository to get an stable version. I would love > | to > | have THAT, but in the original repositories. Examples: omnibrowser, > | unsorted, etc. Do you know how we can fix this ? > | > | > | On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 7:25 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse > | <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > | > wrote: > | > | > Yes lukas now damien was nice to build the images because I could > | not do > | > them. > | > But damien is doing Java daily. > | > > | > | > | Of course this is not Damien fault. Everybody here do as much as > | possible. > | > | > | > | > And you do not like the package browser and we need it :). > | > > | > So I do not know what to do. > | > - first we should add simple trait creation to the OB > | > - now frankly I do not know how we could manage moose without > | the > | > package browser. > | > > | > > | > | Yes, most of the problems in a dev image are related usually with the > | system > | browser :( > | > | > | > | > Stef > | > > | > On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:16 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: > | > > | > >> I have already said it several times. Most of the people don't > | care how > | > >> nice, fast, clean, open source and well programmed is the Pharo > | Core > | > image > | > >> if they cannot use the Dev or Web image. > | > > > | > > This is what I am telling for years already. I don't know how > | other > | > > people think about this, but to me it feels very embarrassing to > | have > | > > to advertise my own way of building images over and over again? > | > > > | > > Here is it again: I am using the scripts > | > > <http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/ImageBuildScripts> to get > | from a > | > > Pharo 1.0rc1 a fast and stable development and deployment image. > | The > | > > image loads a well tested and fast OB, a working and well tested > | > > refactoring engine, working syntax highlighting, working code > | > > completion, and several other tools I use daily and that I cannot > | work > | > > without. I am not telling it is bug free, but with my personal > | > > workflow I can use it without getting interrupted by bugs all the > | > > time. And when I encounter a bug, I fix it. > | > > > | > > I don't think that somebody can build a stable distribution > | without > | > > using it 12 hours daily. Have a look at PharoCore, it is only > | rock > | > > solid because Stef is using it all day long to integrate fixes. > | Have a > | > > look at Squeak Trunk, it only sees improvement because Andreas is > | > > using it all day long. Have a look at Debian, Gentoo, ... > | > > > | > > Lukas > | > > > | > > -- > | > > Lukas Renggli > | > > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > | > > > | > > _______________________________________________ > | > > Pharo-project mailing list > | > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > | > > > | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > | > > | > > | > _______________________________________________ > | > Pharo-project mailing list > | > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > | > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > | > > | > | _______________________________________________ > | Pharo-project mailing list > | Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Dec. 30, 2009