December 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Stuff

by GeertClaes

I don't know the entire background and I most definitively don't want to start something here but it looks like politics. The "Pharo Project" team seems to have achieved more in 1 year than Squeak had in a decade - from my point of view :) I am a bit confused what the idea of Squeak using PharoCore as the base (or core) would be? Is the suggestion to have Squeak become a sub-project of Pharo, building on top of PharoCore in a similar way as Pharo (dev/web) does? I wouldn't think the Squeak team is willing to handover the "core" to Pharo, otherwise there would never have been a Pharo project in the first place .... or am I barking up the wrong tree? Anyhow, better package management and code sharing (simpler) would be great :) -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Fwd-squeak-dev-Stuff-tp4174205p4174266.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Stuff

by Igor Stasenko

2009/12/16 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > I will reply because this situation is silly and keith has some good points. > Yes, silly, by fact that currently there are two groups of people each putting improvements over different places of merely same thing, duplicating an effort(s). But anyways, its better than sitting and waiting for Great New Thing (c) to be released by someone. I just hope, that at some day both forks will adopt DeltaStreams to make our life a bit easier in respect of sharing the code. > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: keith <keith_hodges(a)yahoo.co.uk> > Date: 2009/12/16 > Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Stuff > To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list > <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> > > >> So the question is, has ever been considered to simply build the bridge >> between >> communities and to use the PharoCore image as the base for Squeak? > > This wouldn't work for the same reasons that it wouldn't work to use a > Squeak-trunk image as the basis for Pharo. You should propose that at > some point just to see what kind of reaction you get ;-) > > Cheers, > Â Â - Andreas > > Yes please propose it. That is an excellent idea. Lets use the PharoCore > image as the base for future Squeak releases! It would work excellently, it > might require some humility from Andreas. In my opinion it is the only > sensible way forward. > Let me divulge a little secret here, the biggest reason that we kept the > original 3.11 development always said to be about "process" and not about > the actual release image, is that with a decent image building and testing > process in place it would then have been possible to build and test a future > squeak release pilot on top of some of the pharo-core packages. For us Pharo > was simply a pilot project moving the core forward that we could borrow the > best bits from it as appropriate. By adopting pharo in carefully integrated > pieces we would perhaps of stood a chance of keeping the community together. > The annoying thing was that Pharo team seemed to be insisting on diverging > far more than was necessary and consistently refused to adopt any shared > values or code that would have made this approach easier, we really need as > a starting point, shared code loading tools, package management tools, and > shared testing tools at the very least. i.e. Installer, and MC1.5/6 were > developed with this in mind, and so was SUnit-improved, but the Pharo team > refused to touch either of these projects. > The more that the squeak-core image changes (i.e. in trunk) without tracking > pharo's core packages the more diverse and impossible future integration > will become. The old 3.11 effort was about having the tools to enable > packages to be developed and tested in both Pharo and Squeak and all other > forks, and then extending this to suggest common core packages as a way > forward for everyone. > So now that our to-be carefully planned evolution of squeak-core, using > pharo for inspiration, has been trashed by random hacking on trunk, adopting > PharoCore as a base image is probably the viable way forward for this > community to remain viable. > You already know that I don't see the squeak community as viable, since it > eats its young. > Sooner or later the board or someone will realize this, they will get > elected to the board, and all those of you who have been working hard on > trunk will discover that all your contributions have been wasted. Never mind > eh. > Keith > > > > > > -- > CÃ©drick > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Dec. 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Problems with Czech accented characters

by Mariano Martinez Peck

I think this stuff of encoding is important. Maybe we should ask an entry in F.A.Q saying something like this: " When I type certain characters a '?' is displayed instead of the real problem. The standard font in Pharo covers the latin-15 character set. Which means it should be able to display Ã¡ÃÃ©, with a Unicode conversion table. However, all input outside ascii range is in Unicode, so to display those you need to - Import a Font which includes them. (Like the DejaVu FT-font included previously) - Change the fonts used to the one you know support those characters from the world right click menu, in System -> Preferences -> System fonts. " What do you think? Cheers, Mariano On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:33 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > Thanks for your feedback. > > Stef > > On Dec 15, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Martin PolÃ¡k wrote: > > > Interesting...I copied 'Fonts' folder from older Pharo dist. to new > > one and now I can see all system fonts installed on my Mac. So I have > > chosen Monaco font for code and all characters were displayed > > correctly. So problem is gone, I hope. Thanks for your time. > > > > Cheers, > > Martin > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Dec. 16, 2009

[Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Stuff

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

I will reply because this situation is silly and keith has some good points. > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: keith <keith_hodges(a)yahoo.co.uk> > Date: 2009/12/16 > Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Stuff > To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> > > >> > So the question is, has ever been considered to simply build the bridge between >> > communities and to use the PharoCore image as the base for Squeak? >> >> This wouldn't work for the same reasons that it wouldn't work to use a >> Squeak-trunk image as the basis for Pharo. You should propose that at >> some point just to see what kind of reaction you get ;-) >> >> Cheers, >> - Andreas > > Yes please propose it. That is an excellent idea. Lets use the PharoCore image as the base for future Squeak releases! It would work excellently, it might require some humility from Andreas. In my opinion it is the only sensible way forward. > > Let me divulge a little secret here, the biggest reason that we kept the original 3.11 development always said to be about "process" and not about the actual release image, is that with a decent image building and testing process in place it would then have been possible to build and test a future squeak release pilot on top of some of the pharo-core packages. For us Pharo was simply a pilot project moving the core forward that we could borrow the best bits from it as appropriate. By adopting pharo in carefully integrated pieces we would perhaps of stood a chance of keeping the community together. > > The annoying thing was that Pharo team seemed to be insisting on diverging far more than was necessary and consistently refused to adopt any shared values or code that would have made this approach easier, we really need as a starting point, shared code loading tools, package management tools, and shared testing tools at the very least. i.e. Installer, and MC1.5/6 were developed with this in mind, and so was SUnit-improved, but the Pharo team refused to touch either of these projects. > > The more that the squeak-core image changes (i.e. in trunk) without tracking pharo's core packages the more diverse and impossible future integration will become. The old 3.11 effort was about having the tools to enable packages to be developed and tested in both Pharo and Squeak and all other forks, and then extending this to suggest common core packages as a way forward for everyone. > > So now that our to-be carefully planned evolution of squeak-core, using pharo for inspiration, has been trashed by random hacking on trunk, adopting PharoCore as a base image is probably the viable way forward for this community to remain viable. > > You already know that I don't see the squeak community as viable, since it eats its young. > > Sooner or later the board or someone will realize this, they will get elected to the board, and all those of you who have been working hard on trunk will discover that all your contributions have been wasted. Never mind eh. > > Keith > > > > > > > -- > CÃ©drick

Dec. 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] This interpreter (vers. 6502) cannot read image file (vers. 6504).

by Bryce Kampjes

On Mon, 2009-12-14 at 14:39 -0800, Monty Kamath wrote: > The latest version of the vm doesn't work on CentOS 4 because it requires > glibc 2.4. > Is there an older version of the vm that will work? If so could you point > me to it? > > My VPS is on CentOS 4 which doesn't have glibc 2.4 so I get this error: > ./squeakvm: /lib/tls/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.4' not found (required > by ./squeakvm) > > The VPS support guys tell me not to upgrade glibc because it will corrupt > the container. > > I think this means that I either need to switch to a CentOS 5 container or > find an older vm that doesnt' require glibc 2.4. You'll need to use a new VM if you want to use newer images with proper closures. You can build one yourself easily enough from the C sources that are here: http://www.squeakvm.org/unix/ or here: http://ftp.squeak.org/Exupery/vms/exupery-vm-0.15-linux-src.tz I think Ian's VMs (top link) have decent documentation on doing a C only build (1). The trick is to re-run configure if required which is in ./platforms/unix/config/configure. Bryce (1) A proper build would involve getting a working image, then using that to run VMMaker to rebuild the generated C sources.

Dec. 15, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [Fwd: windowColorSpecification]

by Michael Rueger

Lukas Renggli wrote: >> My purpose is not to remove them. >> The question is do we keep WindowColorSpec and related stuffs with >> the possibility to change colors from the preference browser, >> the "Pale" and "White" color themes ... > > Yeah sure. I completely agree. I never used those themes. Well, the first thing I always did in my images is to set the theme to White :-) Never could stomach the 60's staring back at me through windows colors ;-) Michael

Dec. 15, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [Fwd: windowColorSpecification]

by Lukas Renggli

> My purpose is not to remove them. > The question is do we keep WindowColorSpec and related stuffs with > the possibility to change colors from the preference browser, > the "Pale" and "White" color themes ... Yeah sure. I completely agree. I never used those themes. > My position is that we should not give the possibility to change > window colors individually and simplify window color handling. Yep, perfect. Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

Dec. 15, 2009

[Pharo-project] [update 1.1] #11105

by Marcus Denker

11105 ----- Issue 1612: remove halt from MenuItemMorph>>drawOn

Dec. 15, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Problems with Czech accented characters

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Thanks for your feedback. Stef On Dec 15, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Martin PolÃ¡k wrote: > Interesting...I copied 'Fonts' folder from older Pharo dist. to new > one and now I can see all system fonts installed on my Mac. So I have > chosen Monaco font for code and all characters were displayed > correctly. So problem is gone, I hope. Thanks for your time. > > Cheers, > Martin > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 15, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Problems with Czech accented characters

by Martin PolÃ¡k

Interesting...I copied 'Fonts' folder from older Pharo dist. to new one and now I can see all system fonts installed on my Mac. So I have chosen Monaco font for code and all characters were displayed correctly. So problem is gone, I hope. Thanks for your time. Cheers, Martin

Dec. 15, 2009