December 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Stuff

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

Hi all, For people out of the discussion, a secret to approach this kind of highly-technical and political dialogs is to perform one or many dialectical shifts to a meta-dialog framework. Sadly, now there is few people in the world with enough knowledge in technology and rethorics to do that in acceptable time (without being payed of course). The better we can do now is not to break implicit debate rules, i.e. not to leave conversations, and not use "ad hominem" attacks which are two very common fallacies. Cheers, HernÃ¡n 2009/12/16 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > I will reply because this situation is silly and keith has some good points. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: keith <keith_hodges(a)yahoo.co.uk> > Date: 2009/12/16 > Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Stuff > To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list > <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> > > >> So the question is, has ever been considered to simply build the bridge >> between >> communities and to use the PharoCore image as the base for Squeak? > > This wouldn't work for the same reasons that it wouldn't work to use a > Squeak-trunk image as the basis for Pharo. You should propose that at > some point just to see what kind of reaction you get ;-) > > Cheers, > Â Â - Andreas > > Yes please propose it. That is an excellent idea. Lets use the PharoCore > image as the base for future Squeak releases! It would work excellently, it > might require some humility from Andreas. In my opinion it is the only > sensible way forward. > Let me divulge a little secret here, the biggest reason that we kept the > original 3.11 development always said to be about "process" and not about > the actual release image, is that with a decent image building and testing > process in place it would then have been possible to build and test a future > squeak release pilot on top of some of the pharo-core packages. For us Pharo > was simply a pilot project moving the core forward that we could borrow the > best bits from it as appropriate. By adopting pharo in carefully integrated > pieces we would perhaps of stood a chance of keeping the community together. > The annoying thing was that Pharo team seemed to be insisting on diverging > far more than was necessary and consistently refused to adopt any shared > values or code that would have made this approach easier, we really need as > a starting point, shared code loading tools, package management tools, and > shared testing tools at the very least. i.e. Installer, and MC1.5/6 were > developed with this in mind, and so was SUnit-improved, but the Pharo team > refused to touch either of these projects. > The more that the squeak-core image changes (i.e. in trunk) without tracking > pharo's core packages the more diverse and impossible future integration > will become. The old 3.11 effort was about having the tools to enable > packages to be developed and tested in both Pharo and Squeak and all other > forks, and then extending this to suggest common core packages as a way > forward for everyone. > So now that our to-be carefully planned evolution of squeak-core, using > pharo for inspiration, has been trashed by random hacking on trunk, adopting > PharoCore as a base image is probably the viable way forward for this > community to remain viable. > You already know that I don't see the squeak community as viable, since it > eats its young. > Sooner or later the board or someone will realize this, they will get > elected to the board, and all those of you who have been working hard on > trunk will discover that all your contributions have been wasted. Never mind > eh. > Keith > > > > > > -- > CÃ©drick > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Dec. 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] need hunter to kill the double paste bug.

by Mariano Martinez Peck

When I try to file in the .ch I get a sintax error Nothing more expected ->sendKeyboardEvent: anEvent "Send the event to the morph currently holding the focus, or if none to the owner of the hand." ServiceShortcuts handleKeystroke: anEvent. LastEvents size > 10 ifTrue: [LastEvents removeFirst]. LastEvents add: anEvent clone. ^ self sendEvent: anEvent focus: self keyboardFocus clear: [self keyboardFocus: nil] stef, did it work for you? 2009/12/16 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > > Hi all, > > > > attached a little patch to capture events and paste buffer. > > > > If you encounter a double paste please take a look at > > LastClipPaste and LastEvents. > > > > If this doesn't provide any clue, I will work out a more aggressive > tracing approach. > > > > Didn't send it to the list as it patches into system methods. > > So as mike says pay attention this is hackish :) > > > > Michael > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Dec. 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Stuff

by Levente Uzonyi

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, GeertClaes wrote: > > I don't know the entire background and I most definitively don't want to > start something here but it looks like politics. The "Pharo Project" team > seems to have achieved more in 1 year than Squeak had in a decade - from my > point of view :) You must be kidding. > > I am a bit confused what the idea of Squeak using PharoCore as the base (or > core) would be? Is the suggestion to have Squeak become a sub-project of Ranting about squeak on squeak-dev, that's the idea. Levente > Pharo, building on top of PharoCore in a similar way as Pharo (dev/web) > does? I wouldn't think the Squeak team is willing to handover the "core" to > Pharo, otherwise there would never have been a Pharo project in the first > place .... or am I barking up the wrong tree? Anyhow, better package > management and code sharing (simpler) would be great :) > > > -- > View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Fwd-squeak-dev-Stuff-tp4174205p4174266.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Dec. 16, 2009

[Pharo-project] need hunter to kill the double paste bug.

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> Hi all, > > attached a little patch to capture events and paste buffer. > > If you encounter a double paste please take a look at > LastClipPaste and LastEvents. > > If this doesn't provide any clue, I will work out a more aggressive tracing approach. > > Didn't send it to the list as it patches into system methods. So as mike says pay attention this is hackish :) > > Michael >

Dec. 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] squeak VM 5.0

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi john I'm sure that jannik (which is not bored) can generate huge images :) Stef On Dec 16, 2009, at 9:54 AM, John M McIntosh wrote: > Obviously some bored developer should take one of these handy 64bit images and with a 64bit vm > fire it up and create oh mmm let's say a 10GB image? Just to see, don't forget to save it and reopen, > do a garbage collect all... > > Can't recall hearing of anyone trying an image greater than 2 GB... > > If you show proof of a 100GB image, then I'll buy you a beer at the next ESUG. > > On 2009-12-16, at 12:48 AM, John M McIntosh wrote: > >> So the MAGIC fixes for the tracer to let you build a 64bit Pharo image are below. > > -- > =========================================================================== > John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882 > Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com > =========================================================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] squeak VM 5.0

by John M McIntosh

Obviously some bored developer should take one of these handy 64bit images and with a 64bit vm fire it up and create oh mmm let's say a 10GB image? Just to see, don't forget to save it and reopen, do a garbage collect all... Can't recall hearing of anyone trying an image greater than 2 GB... If you show proof of a 100GB image, then I'll buy you a beer at the next ESUG. On 2009-12-16, at 12:48 AM, John M McIntosh wrote: > So the MAGIC fixes for the tracer to let you build a 64bit Pharo image are below. -- =========================================================================== John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com ===========================================================================

Dec. 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] squeak VM 5.0

by John M McIntosh

RIght and it's 12:30 am again, So the MAGIC fixes for the tracer to let you build a 64bit Pharo image are below. No doubt they apply to closure based squeak trunk images. Could someone can be kind enough to integrate them into the current System-Tracing.2forPharo.cs ? Then some people in Europe? can grab the current Pharo/Trunk image and convert it, and run some smoke tests. BTW you need to use the Squeak.5.0.0.b9.64*64.app.zip to run a 64bit image Don't forget to convert you have to use a powerpc, or a squeak VM that is running as powerpc (via get info settings) on your macintel machine. Still need someone to *fix* the systemtracer so it will run on intel machines. (Hint watch how it writes out integer data). ... Changes below: "This is the magic change, it's not the conversion of the image that is bad. It's the Smalltalk code assumption of is that 4 or 8 bytes? " "There likely should be a Pharo/Squeak bug for this since it should be using wordSize not a magic number of 4" Eliot notes "Bravo! But Smalltalk wordSize has to be implemented in some way that caches the value in e.g. a class variable (or class inst var for max speed) that is reevaluated on startup." So I'll let someone propose/write a clever solution since the Smalltalk wordSize is computational heavy. CompiledMethod>>initialPC "Answer the program counter for the receiver's first bytecode." ^ (self numLiterals + 1) * (Smalltalk wordSize) + 1 "This next method isn't used much, should be. But the System-Tracing.2forPharo.cs trashes it with a ancient version. This is the correct version" SystemDictionary>>wordSize "Answer the size (in bytes) of an object pointer." "Smalltalk wordSize" ^[SmalltalkImage current vmParameterAt: 40] on: Error do: [4] "Changes to properly fix up BlockClosure in the SystemTracer2" SystemTracer2>>object: object allFieldsWithIndex: block collect: sequenceableCollectionClass "Evaluate block against each of the pointer fields with index, and collect the results in an instance of sequenceableCollectionClass" | fixedSize results varSize nilResults blockvalue | object isCompiledMethod ifTrue: [results := sequenceableCollectionClass new: 1 + object numLiterals. 1 to: 1 + object numLiterals do: [:j | results at: j put: (block value: (object objectAt: j) value: j)]. ^ results]. fixedSize := object class instSize. varSize := object basicSize. results := sequenceableCollectionClass new: fixedSize + varSize. 1 to: fixedSize do: [:j | results at: j put: (block value: (object instVarAt: j) value: j)]. 1 to: varSize do: [:j | results at: fixedSize + j put: (block value: (object basicAt: j) value: fixedSize + j)]. object isContextPart ifTrue: [(object instVarAt: 2) ifNotNil: ["May need to adjust PC and startPC if changing wordSize..." blockvalue := (object instVarAt: 2)+(self pcDeltaForMethod: object method). results at: 2 put: (block value: blockvalue value: 2)]. ((object isMemberOf: BlockContext) and: [object home notNil]) ifTrue: [results at: 5 put: (block value: (object instVarAt: 5)+(self pcDeltaForMethod: object method) value: 5)]. "Need to fill out the nils beyond the knowable end of stack" nilResults := sequenceableCollectionClass new: object frameSize - object basicSize. 1 to: nilResults size do: [:j | nilResults at: j put: (block value: nil value: j)]. ^ results , nilResults]. object class = BlockClosure ifTrue: ["May need to adjust PC and startPC if changing wordSize..." blockvalue := (object instVarAt: 2)+(self pcDeltaForMethod: object method). results at: 2 put: (block value: blockvalue value: 2)]. ^ results >> Eliot and I spent 30 minutes chatting about what is wrong. The conclusion is we *think* we are doing the right thing, >> yet the Virtual Machine says the image is busted. So a quick fix is not apparent, and we'll dig more. -- =========================================================================== John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com ===========================================================================

Dec. 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Stuff

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Dec 16, 2009, at 9:15 AM, GeertClaes wrote: > > I don't know the entire background and I most definitively don't want to > start something here but it looks like politics. The "Pharo Project" team > seems to have achieved more in 1 year than Squeak had in a decade - from my > point of view :) Yes I agree. I will not reply. > I am a bit confused what the idea of Squeak using PharoCore as the base (or > core) would be? Is the suggestion to have Squeak become a sub-project of > Pharo, building on top of PharoCore in a similar way as Pharo (dev/web) > does? I wouldn't think the Squeak team is willing to handover the "core" to > Pharo, otherwise there would never have been a Pharo project in the first > place .... or am I barking up the wrong tree? Anyhow, better package > management and code sharing (simpler) would be great :) No you are right. I was dreaming of a beautiful world but it does not exist. I will continue to push pharo to be a vehicule for people to make a living and create a market around it. Now it will be less easier. Stef > > > -- > View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Fwd-squeak-dev-Stuff-tp4174205p4174266.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Problems with Czech accented characters

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

go! On Dec 16, 2009, at 9:02 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > I think this stuff of encoding is important. Maybe we should ask an entry in F.A.Q saying something like this: > > " > When I type certain characters a '?' is displayed instead of the real problem. > > The standard font in Pharo covers the latin-15 character set. Which means it should be able to display Ã¡ÃÃ©, with a Unicode conversion > table. However, all input outside ascii range is in Unicode, so to display those you need to > - Import a Font which includes them. (Like the DejaVu FT-font included > previously) > - Change the fonts used to the one you know support those characters > from the world right click menu, in System -> Preferences -> System fonts. > " > > What do you think? > > Cheers, > > Mariano > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:33 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Thanks for your feedback. > > Stef > > On Dec 15, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Martin PolÃ¡k wrote: > > > Interesting...I copied 'Fonts' folder from older Pharo dist. to new > > one and now I can see all system fonts installed on my Mac. So I have > > chosen Monaco font for code and all characters were displayed > > correctly. So problem is gone, I hope. Thanks for your time. > > > > Cheers, > > Martin > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 16, 2009

[Pharo-project] [newbee] How do I save the contents of a Workspace?

by alesch

I remember I used a menu item in Squeak, but I cannot find in Pharo. Thanks! -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/newbee-How-do-I-save-the-contents-of-a-Workspace-tp417… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 16, 2009