December 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] squeak VM 5.0

by John M McIntosh

Well I did visit the network operations centre for Sprint once, and the main computer in the bunker was *rather* interesting. But it could be interesting to see if os-x with 200GB of free disk space would let you expand the swap space to 100GB. Unfortunately you'll need to page in/out all 100GB of memory, that could take awhile. On 2009-12-16, at 6:19 PM, Michael van der Gulik wrote: > On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:54 PM, John M McIntosh > <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> wrote: >> Obviously some bored developer should take one of these handy 64bit images and with a 64bit vm >> fire it up and create oh mmm let's say a 10GB image? Just to see, don't forget to save it and reopen, >> do a garbage collect all... >> >> Can't recall hearing of anyone trying an image greater than 2 GB... >> >> If you show proof of a 100GB image, then I'll buy you a beer at the next ESUG. > > Do you have a computer with 100GB of memory I could borrow? :-). > > Gulik. > > -- > http://gulik.pbwiki.com/ -- =========================================================================== John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com ===========================================================================

Dec. 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Stuff

by keith

>> > > I could commet in a detail on things which i don't agree with you, but > i don't want to repeat myself. > Words already been said (multiple times) and if you would want to > listen, you will hear. > But you seem simply not listening or just ignoring. > And then don't you think that you not better than others, who not > willing to listen, but feel offended that nobody seem wants to listen > them? > Such attitude makes any compromise impossible & futile. > And, Keith, each time you start blaming someone, ask yourself, what > makes you better than others I am not better than others, I can't work without others. It is precisely because I need the contribution of others that I am so pissed off with people for splitting up the community we used to have. Particularly the Pharo team for explicitly choosing NOT to participate or use ANY shared community projects that have been ongoing for 3/4 years, when those projects were originally conceived with the same goals as pharo in mind. Half of those projects were Stefanes idea in the first place at a time when he said he didn't have time to do any coding (2006-7) Rio is a prime example, as was interest in SSpec, I need other members of the team to test and feedback on my work, but that teamwork is NOT available, because of the NIH attitude demonstrated by several parties who will not in any circumstance contribute to any externally organized project but insist on working as individuals or as cliques. Colin cites that his reason for not considering Bob as an option is that Bob requires Sake in the image to be built which it doesn't. He then defines a set of requirements for Mason which are EXACTLY THE SAME as those which Bob had, since Bob 1 was written in ruby in Jan 2007. Mason defines a hierarchy of build targets with dependencies?, hmm dependencies where have I heard that word before, oh yes Metacello, Universes, SM3, Sake/Packages and what framework was developed as a minimal implementation of a dependency structure, Sake. Why didn't Colin use Bob? Why didn't Mason use Sake? Why didnt metacello consider Sake, or SM3 consider Sake, it smells somewhat of "not invented here". Do you think I have a clue what I am doing when I write something like Sake? No I haven't got a clue, I have never even understood how 'make' works. So I have a go, I learn on the job, sake is on iteration 2.5 as it is, and it would be nice to have some help, I look forward to others joining in and being community to help were I am weak. However what do those others do, they do their own thing because they are too elitist and hotshot to consider contributing to an existing public project that couldn't possibly be worthy of their esteemed input. Installer is an OPEN community project, I did version 1, Matthew did most of version 2. Along comes Gofer with some new ideas, does gofer contribute to the community supporting vision of a unified extendable DSL for installing things, or does it compete? Before you accuse me of judging, I never said that Sake was technically perfect, but it was there FIRST as an open community project for anyone and everyone to contribute to, so was squeaksource/ Testing and MC1.5 these were all the first OPEN to all contributor projects. We were not proud, we would like to have contributors helping, (that would perhaps help me to develop the commercial side of my business a bit, instead I go bankrupt), so with Sake there is an OPEN project interested in providing a framework for supporting dependent tasks. Given a choice of contributing or competing, the choice appears always to be to compete. This is not good in my opinion and it has to change. Obviously I am not the one to change it because I get too hot under the collar and I can't do politics. This is why Matthew was the 3.11 release team leader officially, as the political leader, to protect me from my own ineptitude at politics, hmm, it didn't quite work did it. Do you think that Bob could have benefitted from Colins experience? I think it could. Why is it acceptable for me to spend $30k of my own time and resources developing something as a project for the community to contribute to and participate in, only to have it flushed down the toliet by someone who is being paid a packet, and can't even be bothered to email out a question like "does Bob do this already?", or "can I help?". Same goes for Dale, he is being paid to do this stuff, so is Stef and Marcus. Whereas every hour I spend on this work for the benefit of the community costs me in time I could have spent on paid work, I am not even just a volunteer, I am actually paying to contribute to these projects that no one wants. What is particularly upsetting is when the board say they want it, and vote on and approve written proposals to that effect. Come to think about it I think that the squeak-board and Andreas owe me about $30k in compensation for wasted effort. I always use other peoples stuff. Everything I do uses other people's stuff, I have always fixed bugs and fed back every problem I have ever found, contributing to their projects as best I can. If I have an idea I look to see if anyone else is doing it and I seek to contribute to that project not to compete with it. I choose to enter dialog, simply because it is easier if someone else has already done the work. Every contribution that I have made has been for the benefit of everyone else, and built on the work of others, and I have sacrificed a lot of paid work to make those contributions. Every contribution I have ever made has been aimed for use by all users of squeak/pharo whatever the image they are currently stuck using, even if it is 3.7. Most of the audience here and over on squeak-dev is only developing for one image and one set of users, so perhaps I do have the moral high ground here, and I feel I may be joined here by the likes of Nick Cellier who has also been contributing equally for everyone. Now if I can make numerous contributions for 4 years that everyone can use, such as Rio, Logging, Sake, Sake/Packages, Installer, MC1.5, Bob, Sake/Scheduler, Jetsam, Beach etc then with a minor modicum of thought so can everyone else on some projects at least. For example HTTPClient, Network, Collections, NewCompiler, Preferences, DS, changes, closures etc. This partisan politics of pharo camps, squeak camps, is all utter rubbish. It is laziness, simply because no one can be bothered to talk to each other, or to plan what they are doing, or to define an API, and no one in charge has the backbone or political will to say "We will contribute to, and use this project X as a common resource for all". Effort is needed to develop integration and testing servers that would underpin such approaches and this is needed upfront in advance of relentless image hacking. (Bob2 was essentially finished in February 2009) That was the basis of the proposal to the squeak board you know all about, that the board has subsequently abandoned, so now the squeak release team is also now only developing for their own clique. Pharo or Squeak progress isn't planned, you can't tell me what Stefane or Andreas is going to announce next! This isn't really software engineering, it is hacking about reminiscent of what we used to do as schoolboys. What happened to release early and often that the Smalltalk community invented. Where are the CRC cards and the prioritization, what is the working rate of the team etc. We are supposed to be the elite, knowledgeable in Extreme programming techniques, well Pharo isn't releasing on a monthly cycle, and Squeak certainly isn't. I cant tell my bosses what features will be coming online in the next 3 months that we could plan to use. With Andreas' contribution Squeak would have started with bi-monthly releases in August, we would have been working on Squeak 3.13-beta by now if Andreas hadn't butted in with his old style hack away, wait a year or two for a release of I know not what, methods. I thought that if you want to plan you make an announcement, like we used to do. "We want to move such and such a feature forward, the repository is here, would you like to join us". What I want to know is why when someone attempts to say "We will open up project X as a common resource for all" the default reaction is not to contribute but to compete and start your own project? When in 2006 the consensus opinion is that progress was needed I decided to volunteer in some small way. Recognizing that the image needed to move towards a kernel image, one small step, I started with some small projects. I have 32 years programming experience, and I have been using SUnit since 1999ish, my first project ran to 2000 tests in ST/X so I know a little bit about how SUnit could be improved with the ability to categorize tests. I am not some fresh faced coder from graduate school, I felt that if anyone was qualified to make a small contribution to SUnit I was. So we announced some ideas, and made everything public and open for contributions we moved SUnit into a separate repository (squeaksource/Testing) and looked towards combining it with SSpec, we added lots of new features for categorizing tests and a file output based TestReporter which generates results for http display and download using apache. We also added hooks to invoke tests suites from the command line. This was offered as the planned community way forward for SUnit in Sept 2006ish FOR EVERYONE as encouraged by Stefane in the first place and at the time it all worked reasonably well in squeak 3.9. So then stefane starts Pharo and the pharo team ignore squeaksource/ Testing completely and their fresh faced graduate students start making things incompatible, they are actively UNDERMINING all progress that had been made. This isn't just rude, this is patently hostile to any efforts to enable collaboration to happen. It also completely scuppers me because I need the input of others particularly experienced Pharo people contributing to the team in order for it to function. MC1.6 atomic loading needed pharo input to be able to load traits, and that input never happened, and never could happen, because pharo began using a MC that was 2 years behind. This is basically an approach which is destructive to the community, and it is a result of political decision making, whether to support a project as an external resource for everyone to use, or whether to act like control freaks and to retain ownership of a package, (and break it for everyone else) that we really need to be developed for the benefit of all as a matter of importance to be common between all squeak/pharo camps. I have volunteered since July 2006 in an active manner. Much of this was at the suggestion of Stefane who made some proposals as to what was needed at the time. So I was encouraged by stefane to move some things forward. So... when after moving things forward in squeaksource/ Testing and making it completely loadable, Stefane and gang then choose to use as a starting point the status of things in 3.9, without considering the input of anyone that had contributed in the intervening period of almost 2 years, I got annoyed and I remain annoyed, because it was his idea in the first place, and his vision that I did the work for in the first place. Did Andreas build on the status of 3.11 (3.10-build) when he took over, or did he start from a starting point 3 years back? Now you have people saying that they don't see any progress in squeak for umpteen years do you wonder why? Pointing out decisions that have explicit effects is not judging. So then finally to add insult to injury the processes adopted by both the Squeak and Pharo communities effectively shut out every contribution I have made, not least because all of my contributions are supposed to be for both. For example, my contribution to Squeak is to restructure some packages, in particular Monticello and PackageInfo. Now you try loading a restructured set of packages into the trunk repository. It wont work because the trunk process starts with the MC tools loaded and the package structure already decided, not least of which is the problem that MC cant load a new version of MC into itself. So I spend 3 months of effort working on that problem (LevelPlayingField), for what? Anyhow the net result is a process which effectively to shut out my contribution that I spent a lot of time and resources on. Thanks for that! Having a process that could harness everyones contributions was a key philosophical starting point. You have to start any project with your philosophical values, and build on that. You cannot jump ship on your values without causing major upheaval. That is what happened, Andreas explicitly replaced the process that was designed to enable fundamental and important changes to happen in a planned manner with a process that makes such contributions completely impossible. While Elliot is talking about the need to build up an image from a minimal source/kernel, others are talking about reducing the image to a kernel, along comes Andreas and proposes a process based around a monolithic image. It's lunatic stuff it really is. So yes I judge people, when you make decisions that effect other people without consulting them, I think its fair to speak up. Stefane was the one in 2006 listing what features squeak definitely needed, so when I got to work I think it is the least he could do, to build on this work rather than compete with it. I used to believe that the only hope for this squeak/pharo community was for there to be a "sensible and thoughtful" squeak-dev development team following on 6-12 months behind the "forge right on ahead and innovate at all costs" pharo team. This was really only possible if pharo used common tools, which the pharo team point blank refused to do. I thought we could work around this in the short term, and pharo team would eventually see sense, being wowed by the effectiveness of Bob and the new release often process cycle. But now we have a "forge on ahead" without tools squeak-dev team as well, the joint community thing is not ever going to happen. While we have a squeak-board process that allows a newly elected person who hasn't been making any recent contributions himself to the community to then scupper 3 years of consistent beneficial work without even discussing his plans with those it effects, and the board then spouts "the end justifies the means", when it doesn't even know what the end is going to be. The squeak world is really broken because it is institutionally unpredictable and I really advise people to stay well clear. I will probably use pharo for future work now, just because I will have to use something. I might look into returning to lovely peaceful professional world of ST/X that I am beginning to miss. I am withdrawing my personal input to any of my contributions that does not contribute in some way to the bottom line, I simply cannot afford not to. I am also a full time carer, so I cant just earn nothing indefinitely. If I had time and income I might be persuaded to be nice, document stuff and play the competition game for a bit. I never wanted to compete, and I refuse to compete, all I ever wanted was for people to work together and contribute. Work on 3.11 and Bob stopped the instant that Andreas announced his competing approach, because I don't have any will to compete, this isn't a competition, we are supposed to be collaborating and communicating on a professional basis of mutual respect. lol Although Bob is finished and operational, I won't make any further contribution until that contribution is towards an actual vision of benefit to the community. While Andreas is competing with pharo, his vision is not helpful to anyone, while pharo's vision is to ignore everyone else, their vision is not helpful either. The previous squeak 3.11 vision was purposefully orthogonal to the pharo one, and so the two would have been able to fit together with the minimal of effort. If someone wants to support the vision of continuing to develop tools that we can use to bring the communities together then we stand a chance of moving forward and I would be happy to advise, but I am unable to contribute to this vision any further for financial reasons. So to answer your questions... yes I think I can judge because at least I have made an effort to contribute and harmonize all along. As far as listening is concerned there is nothing I can do. I no longer have any resources to do anything with what I hear. My ranting merely serves to inform those who want to compete rather than to contribute that they have won by default by walking over everything that has gone before. I can't compete, so you have a choice, you either use the extensive work which with has been done on your behalf or you throw it away. I am no longer in a position to effect things either way, since I have been unable due circumstances to write a single line of code since the squeak board acted as they did. Ranting is all I have left that I can do. sorry Keith

Dec. 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] squeak VM 5.0

by keith

On 17 Dec 2009, at 02:19, Michael van der Gulik wrote: > On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:54 PM, John M McIntosh > <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> wrote: >> Obviously some bored developer should take one of these handy 64bit >> images and with a 64bit vm >> fire it up and create oh mmm let's say a 10GB image? Just to see, >> don't forget to save it and reopen, >> do a garbage collect all... >> >> Can't recall hearing of anyone trying an image greater than 2 GB... >> >> If you show proof of a 100GB image, then I'll buy you a beer at the >> next ESUG. > > Do you have a computer with 100GB of memory I could borrow? :-). > > Gulik. Possibly Keith

Dec. 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] squeak VM 5.0

by Michael van der Gulik

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:54 PM, John M McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> wrote: > Obviously some bored developer should take one of these handy 64bit images and with a 64bit vm > fire it up and create oh mmm let's say a 10GB image? Â Just to see, don't forget to save it and reopen, > do a garbage collect all... > > Can't recall hearing of anyone trying an image greater than 2 GB... > > If you show proof of a 100GB image, then I'll buy you a beer at the next ESUG. Do you have a computer with 100GB of memory I could borrow? :-). Gulik. -- http://gulik.pbwiki.com/

Dec. 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [Vm-dev] Re: squeak VM 5.0

by John M McIntosh

Ok, well I created Mantis http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=7430 to document. Personally I would do Smalltalk wordSize versus SystemDictionary wordSize Also the issue is when to change the WordSize variable. I think in SmalltalkImage>>snapshot: andQuit: embedded: right at the ifTrue: [self quitPrimitive]. Cursor normal show. you want to set things so that wordSize is reset. At quit time you could do the reset before the "self quitPrimitive" then you know the value is reset and needs to be recalculated at startup time. or you can reset it before the Cursor normal show. which runs after startup time Somehow I think there is more risk resetting it after startup since I'm not sure when something could leap in wanting a valid value. On 2009-12-16, at 2:44 PM, Laval Jannik wrote: > Hi Eliot, hi John, > > This is what I do: > - create a class var in SystemDictionary > - accessors (wordSize and wordSize:), the first one can initialize the variable if nil, the second is to modify the value in case of 64bits image. > Maybe the second one could be integrated in System-Tracing file. > - in CompiledMethod, initialPC use it. > > Maybe we could integrate it in pharoCore. > -- =========================================================================== John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com ===========================================================================

Dec. 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [newbee] How do I save the contents of a Workspace?

by Ramiro Diaz Trepat

Hi Igor, nothing "stops" your cut / paste ability, but I believe that is not the right question. I work with VW Smalltalk and at wrok we also have different images for different sides of the busines. It may be dirty and arguable to use scripts instead of a class for your scripts full of class methods, but if you do want to save quite a few scripts/workspaces, it is much more handy to keep them in a directory of saved workspeces, than start opening and closing a whole lot of old images until you find the one that bit of code that you wanted and then, yes, copy and paste it to your new image. Cheers r On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2009/12/16 Ramiro Diaz Trepat <ramiro.diaz.trepat(a)jpmorgan.com>: > > I really miss that feature. > > In my oppinion it is very useful when you regularly use different images, > or when you frequently rebuild your development image from newer versions. > > Also, I wonder if the Package Browser should be removed completely since > it does not even open now when you select it as preferred. > > Cheers > > > What prevents you from copying the workspace text, open your favorite > text editor, paste text there and save it in a file? > > > > r > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto: > pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of StÃ©phane Ducasse > > Sent: 16 December 2009 12:07 > > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [newbee] How do I save the contents of a > Workspace? > > > > for me it was political/educational to remove it. > > > > I saw too many people having expressions in workspace and not in class > methods (not versioned with the code). > > because if this is really important why not put it in a class method? > > Then you load the code and of course you do not get the magic example > beacuse they were in the wonderfull scripts left in the other > > images..... > > > > Stef > > > > On Dec 16, 2009, at 12:51 PM, CÃ©drick BÃ©ler wrote: > > > >> I think this is a valuable feature. > >> > >> Should we save in a particular file extension (.wst ? or simply text > files ?) so that we can also have load opening from a a list of files of > that format. This would be nice for tutorials instead of saving workspace > content in a method. > >> > >> CÃ©drick > >> > >> 2009/12/16 alesch <alex(a)schenkman.info> > >> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 11:45, Damien Cassou [via Smalltalk] <[hidden > email]> wrote: > >> > >> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:29 AM, alesch <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> > I remember I used a menu item in Squeak, but I cannot find in Pharo. > >> > >> You can't. Do you misss that feature? > >> > >> Yes I do. > >> > >> > >> View this message in context: Re: [Pharo-project] [newbee] How do I save > the contents of a Workspace? > >> > >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > This email is confidential and subject to important disclaimers and > > conditions including on offers for the purchase or sale of > > securities, accuracy and completeness of information, viruses, > > confidentiality, legal privilege, and legal entity disclaimers, > > available at http://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/disclosures/email. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Dec. 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] File Browser (was: Re: [newbee ] How do I save the contents of a Workspace?)

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

FWIW it happens the same way in the image updated to 11105. Em 16/12/2009 22:06, csrabak(a)bol.com.br escreveu: If you go to more... you get this in a Windows machine. HTH -- Cesar Rabak Em 16/12/2009 19:19, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > escreveu: Thanks this is really strange. I do not see why on windows it would be different but good catch. Can you enter a bug entry ? Stef On Dec 16, 2009, at 10:12 PM, Levente Uzonyi wrote: > Quoting StÃ©phane Ducasse : > >> >> Can you show what you get? >> > > Sure, I attached it. The screenshot was taken from an 1.1-11105 image. (Note that the mouse pointer is on the first list item, but you can't see it, because it's a windows machine...) > > > Levente_______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] File Browser (was: Re: [newbee] How do I save the contents of a Workspace?)

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

If you go to more... you get this in a Windows machine. HTH -- Cesar Rabak Em 16/12/2009 19:19, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > escreveu: Thanks this is really strange. I do not see why on windows it would be different but good catch. Can you enter a bug entry ? Stef On Dec 16, 2009, at 10:12 PM, Levente Uzonyi wrote: > Quoting StÃ©phane Ducasse : > >> >> Can you show what you get? >> > > Sure, I attached it. The screenshot was taken from an 1.1-11105 image. (Note that the mouse pointer is on the first list item, but you can't see it, because it's a windows machine...) > > > Levente_______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 17, 2009

[Pharo-project] Fwd: [BUG] [ :a | ] value: 1

by Torsten Bergmann

Smalltalk/MT also returns nil -- Preisknaller: GMX DSL Flatrate fÃ¼r nur 16,99 Euro/mtl.! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02

Dec. 16, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [newbee] How do I save the contents of a Workspace?

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

OK. I agree that this advice is important enough to make part of the Welcome message we're suggesting to bring back too. OTOH, is we could version the scripts that would be very nice! Em 16/12/2009 15:16, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > escreveu: So send it back and we will integrate it. No problem. But really you should use class side methods and versioned these damned scripts. Stef > Stef, > > I also miss the ready ability to save a workspace. With respect, it is not your place to dictate working methods. You are correct that one can easily over-use workspaces and under-use class methods. However, one can also over-use class methods when a new test case is more appropriate. > > Rather than removing basic features, we should add capabilities to encourage good practice by making things as easy as possible. Dolphin's IDE extensions are a nice feature that I *really* miss in Pharo. One thing I added is a way to create test case methods based on a currently selected method. Each class can specify a TestCase subclass, and the methods were automatically named based on the selected method's name; the code is generated and proposed for optional compiling with warning of conflicts. > > Bill > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Ramiro Diaz Trepat > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 8:44 AM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [newbee] How do I save the contents of a Workspace? > > I really miss that feature. > In my oppinion it is very useful when you regularly use different images, or when you frequently rebuild your development image from newer versions. > Also, I wonder if the Package Browser should be removed completely since it does not even open now when you select it as preferred. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of StÃ©phane Ducasse > Sent: 16 December 2009 12:07 > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [newbee] How do I save the contents of a Workspace? > > for me it was political/educational to remove it. > > I saw too many people having expressions in workspace and not in class methods (not versioned with the code). > because if this is really important why not put it in a class method? > Then you load the code and of course you do not get the magic example beacuse they were in the wonderfull scripts left in the other images..... > > Stef > > On Dec 16, 2009, at 12:51 PM, CÃ©drick BÃ©ler wrote: > >> I think this is a valuable feature. >> >> Should we save in a particular file extension (.wst ? or simply text files ?) so that we can also have load opening from a a list of files of that format. This would be nice for tutorials instead of saving workspace content in a method. >> >> CÃ©drick >> >> 2009/12/16 alesch On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 11:45, >> Damien Cassou [via Smalltalk] <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:29 AM, alesch <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> I remember I used a menu item in Squeak, but I cannot find in Pharo. >> >> You can't. Do you misss that feature? >> >> Yes I do. >> >> >> View this message in context: Re: [Pharo-project] [newbee] How do I save the contents of a Workspace? >> >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > This email is confidential and subject to important disclaimers and conditions including on offers for the purchase or sale of securities, accuracy and completeness of information, viruses, confidentiality, legal privilege, and legal entity disclaimers, available at http://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/disclosures/email. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 16, 2009