November 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] prebuilt 1.1 #11035

by Adrian Lienhard

On Nov 7, 2009, at 20:59 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > A 1.1 alpha under construction is great. When do underscores > appear, especially in class names? I thought I saw that creeping > forward, and want to register my encouragement of any effort to have > that appear in 1.1. Ok, I'll stop nagging :) It shouldn't be hard to do in 1.1. I discussed with Lukas today and one open question is whether we want to enforce _ not being a valid assignment already in 1.0. I fear a bit that people will complain because they have to fix their code before being able to load it into Pharo. Does anybody see a problem with this? From the previous discussion I understand that most people would favor the change. But is 1.0 too early? > > For 1.0, I'm still stuck by the SharedQueue2 problem. I cannot load > the sequencable collection fixes into either RC image - I thought I > might be able to load it into RC1-dev and then file out the needed > pieces into RC1-web, but no-go :( Can you also try to load your code into a core image? The update I did yesterday includes the SharedQueue2 fixes. Please let us know if it does not fix the problem. Adrian > > Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr > ] On Behalf Of Adrian Lienhard > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:38 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] prebuilt 1.1 #11035 > > Yes, we have a 1.0 and a 1.1 stream now (actually since the sprint > in Lille). > > I'm integrating remaining critical fixes for 1.0, while Stef and the > other integrators have started working on 1.1. I don't think it's > too early at all. It allows us to keep the pace to move forward with > new stuff, while stabilizing and afterwards maintaining the 1.0 > release. > > Just as a reminder, here are the main goals we have set for 1.1: > > - New preferences system > - Integrate Alien > - Improve code quality (e.g., make selected Lint tests pass) > - Continuous integration system > > (http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Milestones) > > Cheers, > Adrian > > On Nov 7, 2009, at 20:15 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > >> mmmmmmm are we already in 1.1 alpha ??? isn't it to early ? >> >> Best >> >> Mariano >> >> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Marcus Denker <denker(a)acm.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/24734/PharoCore-1.1-11035- >>> alp >>> ha.zip >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Nov. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] prebuilt 1.1 #11035

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Put that way, I can't argue, unless 1.1 is meant to be a very small increment?? Some of the stuff under Future Milstones sounds great, so whatever pace is realistic is fine by me. ________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:57 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] prebuilt 1.1 #11035 On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch<mailto:adi@netstyle.ch>> wrote: Yes, we have a 1.0 and a 1.1 stream now (actually since the sprint in Lille). Yes I know that. I'm integrating remaining critical fixes for 1.0, while Stef and the other integrators have started working on 1.1. I don't think it's too early at all. It allows us to keep the pace to move forward with new stuff, while stabilizing and afterwards maintaining the 1.0 release. Yes, but this is done just with separating the streams in 1.0 and 1.1. What I don't know if it is ok is to put alpha to 1.1. I mean, when you tag something with alpha it means it is almost done and there are some bugs yet. But I think the job to be done for 1.1 is far more than just a couple of bugs. Maybe I wrong. But it sound strange to me to see a RC of one version and an alpha of the following at the same time. Cheers Mariano Just as a reminder, here are the main goals we have set for 1.1: - New preferences system - Integrate Alien - Improve code quality (e.g., make selected Lint tests pass) - Continuous integration system (http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Milestones) Cheers, Adrian On Nov 7, 2009, at 20:15 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > mmmmmmm are we already in 1.1 alpha ??? isn't it to early ? > > Best > > Mariano > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Marcus Denker <denker(a)acm.org<mailto:denker@acm.org>> wrote: > >> >> >> http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/24734/PharoCore-1.1-11035-alpha.zip >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Nov. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] prebuilt 1.1 #11035

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

A 1.1 alpha under construction is great. When do underscores appear, especially in class names? I thought I saw that creeping forward, and want to register my encouragement of any effort to have that appear in 1.1. Ok, I'll stop nagging :) For 1.0, I'm still stuck by the SharedQueue2 problem. I cannot load the sequencable collection fixes into either RC image - I thought I might be able to load it into RC1-dev and then file out the needed pieces into RC1-web, but no-go :( Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Adrian Lienhard Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:38 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] prebuilt 1.1 #11035 Yes, we have a 1.0 and a 1.1 stream now (actually since the sprint in Lille). I'm integrating remaining critical fixes for 1.0, while Stef and the other integrators have started working on 1.1. I don't think it's too early at all. It allows us to keep the pace to move forward with new stuff, while stabilizing and afterwards maintaining the 1.0 release. Just as a reminder, here are the main goals we have set for 1.1: - New preferences system - Integrate Alien - Improve code quality (e.g., make selected Lint tests pass) - Continuous integration system (http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Milestones) Cheers, Adrian On Nov 7, 2009, at 20:15 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > mmmmmmm are we already in 1.1 alpha ??? isn't it to early ? > > Best > > Mariano > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Marcus Denker <denker(a)acm.org> wrote: > >> >> >> http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/24734/PharoCore-1.1-11035-alp >> ha.zip >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Nov. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] prebuilt 1.1 #11035

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> wrote: > Yes, we have a 1.0 and a 1.1 stream now (actually since the sprint in > Lille). > > Yes I know that. > I'm integrating remaining critical fixes for 1.0, while Stef and the > other integrators have started working on 1.1. I don't think it's too > early at all. It allows us to keep the pace to move forward with new > stuff, while stabilizing and afterwards maintaining the 1.0 release. > > Yes, but this is done just with separating the streams in 1.0 and 1.1. What I don't know if it is ok is to put alpha to 1.1. I mean, when you tag something with alpha it means it is almost done and there are some bugs yet. But I think the job to be done for 1.1 is far more than just a couple of bugs. Maybe I wrong. But it sound strange to me to see a RC of one version and an alpha of the following at the same time. Cheers Mariano > Just as a reminder, here are the main goals we have set for 1.1: > > - New preferences system > - Integrate Alien > - Improve code quality (e.g., make selected Lint tests pass) > - Continuous integration system > > (http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Milestones) > > Cheers, > Adrian > > On Nov 7, 2009, at 20:15 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > mmmmmmm are we already in 1.1 alpha ??? isn't it to early ? > > > > Best > > > > Mariano > > > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Marcus Denker <denker(a)acm.org> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/24734/PharoCore-1.1-11035-alpha.zip > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Nov. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] prebuilt 1.1 #11035

by Adrian Lienhard

Yes, we have a 1.0 and a 1.1 stream now (actually since the sprint in Lille). I'm integrating remaining critical fixes for 1.0, while Stef and the other integrators have started working on 1.1. I don't think it's too early at all. It allows us to keep the pace to move forward with new stuff, while stabilizing and afterwards maintaining the 1.0 release. Just as a reminder, here are the main goals we have set for 1.1: - New preferences system - Integrate Alien - Improve code quality (e.g., make selected Lint tests pass) - Continuous integration system (http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Milestones) Cheers, Adrian On Nov 7, 2009, at 20:15 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > mmmmmmm are we already in 1.1 alpha ??? isn't it to early ? > > Best > > Mariano > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Marcus Denker <denker(a)acm.org> wrote: > >> >> >> http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/24734/PharoCore-1.1-11035-alpha.zip >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Nov. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] invalid sources for unregistered CompiledMethod

by Martin McClure

Adrian Lienhard wrote: > Yes, in "normal" use of Pharo, holding the sources in memory would > only consume a fraction of the available RAM. Some applications, > however, have several hundred images running at the same time on a > server. In this case the picture looks very different again. It would be easy to strip all sources from production images, but the simple way of doing that would mean any debugging would be done on decompiled code. > > I think Marcus' idea of swapping in/out ressources is very > interesting. We could get rid of the ancient sources handling but > still have a low, or even lower, memory footprint. > This would be even better. ImageSegments are a start in this direction. -Martin

Nov. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] prebuilt 1.1 #11035

by Mariano Martinez Peck

mmmmmmm are we already in 1.1 alpha ??? isn't it to early ? Best Mariano On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Marcus Denker <denker(a)acm.org> wrote: > > > http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/24734/PharoCore-1.1-11035-alpha.zip > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Nov. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] invalid sources for unregistered CompiledMethod

by Adrian Lienhard

Yes, in "normal" use of Pharo, holding the sources in memory would only consume a fraction of the available RAM. Some applications, however, have several hundred images running at the same time on a server. In this case the picture looks very different again. I think Marcus' idea of swapping in/out ressources is very interesting. We could get rid of the ancient sources handling but still have a low, or even lower, memory footprint. Cheers, Adrian On Nov 7, 2009, at 19:21 , Marcus Denker wrote: > > On Nov 7, 2009, at 7:13 PM, Nicolas Cellier wrote: >>>> >>>> Perhaps it's time to finally get rid of source pointers and just >>>> keep >>>> the source code as objects in the image, referenced directly from >>>> the >>>> CompiledMethod. >>>> >>>> External sources were necessary 25 years ago when an image without >>>> sources consumed 3/4 of the total RAM of the machine, but it's not >>>> like >>>> that anymore. >>>> >>> +100 >>> >>> I did that once as an experiment: searching for strings in all the >>> code gets *fast*. >>> >> I'd say +16M >> >> This is what i got when condensing sources: >> 16249263 2009-10-19 20:25 PharoV10.sources > > > yes, but nevertheless, this is how much percent of the Ram of your > machine? > > Two notes: > > - We could compress the source-strings. That should lead to something > like > 5MB increase. > > - We should invest into a general mechanism of swapping in unused > objects on demand. > It's fun that there is a special case for the source, but all the > other resources happily live > in the image (bitmaps, sounds... in general objects not part of the > working set, e.g. I guess 80% of > all compiled methods...). > > Marcus > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Nov. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] invalid sources for unregistered CompiledMethod

by Marcus Denker

On Nov 7, 2009, at 7:13 PM, Nicolas Cellier wrote: >>> >>> Perhaps it's time to finally get rid of source pointers and just >>> keep >>> the source code as objects in the image, referenced directly from >>> the >>> CompiledMethod. >>> >>> External sources were necessary 25 years ago when an image without >>> sources consumed 3/4 of the total RAM of the machine, but it's not >>> like >>> that anymore. >>> >> +100 >> >> I did that once as an experiment: searching for strings in all the >> code gets *fast*. >> > I'd say +16M > > This is what i got when condensing sources: > 16249263 2009-10-19 20:25 PharoV10.sources yes, but nevertheless, this is how much percent of the Ram of your machine? Two notes: - We could compress the source-strings. That should lead to something like 5MB increase. - We should invest into a general mechanism of swapping in unused objects on demand. It's fun that there is a special case for the source, but all the other resources happily live in the image (bitmaps, sounds... in general objects not part of the working set, e.g. I guess 80% of all compiled methods...). Marcus

Nov. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] invalid sources for unregistered CompiledMethod

by Nicolas Cellier

2009/11/7 Marcus Denker <denker(a)acm.org>: > > On Nov 7, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Martin McClure wrote: > >> Nicolas Cellier wrote: >>> >>> But what if you compress the change log ? >> >> Perhaps it's time to finally get rid of source pointers and just keep >> the source code as objects in the image, referenced directly from the >> CompiledMethod. >> >> External sources were necessary 25 years ago when an image without >> sources consumed 3/4 of the total RAM of the machine, but it's not >> like >> that anymore. >> > +100 > > I did that once as an experiment: searching for strings in all the > code gets *fast*. > > Â Â Â Â Marcus > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > I'd say +16M This is what i got when condensing sources: 16249263 2009-10-19 20:25 PharoV10.sources

Nov. 7, 2009