November 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo 1.0 RC1 feedback.

by Marcus Denker

On Nov 17, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Michael van der Gulik wrote: > Hi. > > Here's some feedback for Pharo. I've been using Squeak 3.10, but because I want to use the NewCompiler, I'm going to move development of SecureSqueak to Pharo. > > I go to http://pharo.org/. Woops. He he. I find my way to the Pharo home page. > > Getting Pharo up and running could be a lot easier; I'm using Ubuntu Linux, and I got it up and running quickly because I've a fairly experienced Squeak developer. If I was less familiar with image files and VMs, I would be lost and probably give up. > > I recommend making the release for each platform one large .zip file containing the images, sources and VM. This will reduce confusion, and if you put the executable in the root directory of the zip file, most people will easily be able to work it out. > The idea was to move to single-click images for beginners. See http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/23260/Pharo1.0-10440-BETAdev09.09ON… for an example. For the rest, yes... sadly there are only 24h in the day.... Please add bug reports for all suggestions: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/ And yes, these will be looked at. We fixed and closed already 1168 reports. Marcus

Nov. 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] OSProcess - working on gnuplot

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Yes! What are the problems? I read the mail three times but I could not get it. Stef On Nov 17, 2009, at 9:30 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > Hi Dave, > > On Nov 17, 2009, at 01:40 , David T. Lewis wrote: > > [...] > >> If the above examples do not work for you, it is very likely due to >> the >> current inconsistencies between OSProcess and Pharo, for which I do >> not yet >> have a solution (I would welcome any tips here, I tried again last >> night to >> figure out what's wrong and gave up in frustration :-/ ). > > > What is the simplest thing to do to reproduce the problem? > > Do we know if it is on all platforms? Does it work in a Squeak Trunk > image? > > Maybe I or other people can help to get more insights about what goes > wrong. OSProcess is certainly a very important package for Pharo, so > we should try to get it working again. > > Thanks, > Adrian > ___________________ > http://www.adrian-lienhard.ch/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Nov. 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo 1.0 RC1 feedback.

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Thanks a lot for your feedback. Stef On Nov 17, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Michael van der Gulik wrote: > Hi. > > Here's some feedback for Pharo. I've been using Squeak 3.10, but because I want to use the NewCompiler, I'm going to move development of SecureSqueak to Pharo. > > I go to http://pharo.org/. Woops. He he. I find my way to the Pharo home page. > > Getting Pharo up and running could be a lot easier; I'm using Ubuntu Linux, and I got it up and running quickly because I've a fairly experienced Squeak developer. If I was less familiar with image files and VMs, I would be lost and probably give up. > > I recommend making the release for each platform one large .zip file containing the images, sources and VM. This will reduce confusion, and if you put the executable in the root directory of the zip file, most people will easily be able to work it out. > > The VM has a README file - good, but it assumes a lot of experience from the user. Again, if I was not a programmer, I'd be lost. > > The image zip file has a lot of extra stuff in it (fonts?) and no README file. > > I start up the VM - I get a white window, the Pharo logo and that's it. I'm able to just jump in and start using this because I'm familiar with Squeak, but if I was a new user to Pharo, this would be rather intimidating. I recommend having a workspace with nicely formatted fonts saying "Welcome to Pharo, go read Pharo by Example". > > The project menu / desktop menu / whatever menu that comes up is badly formatted. The last four items ("Save", "Save As", "Save and quit" and "Quit") have icons and more spacing between them than the items above them. The vertical size of each menu item should be constant. Menu entries still use the small font that Squeak uses, making them hard to click on (for fumble-fingers like me). > > The menu structure is a vast improvement over Squeak! > > I open up a browser. It looks nice, but I can't understand the red/yellow/green buttons in the top left corner. What are they meant to be? The tooltips help, but I find it odd to use coloured buttons. > > I use a slowish Celeron-based computer (if you could call 1.6 BILLION operations per second slow!). The whole environment feels a bit sluggish. I spend some time in the preferences and manage to make it a bit more reactive by disabling some eye-candy. > > I come across a dialog: "Changes have not been saved, bla bla". The dialog is odd; it needs the attention of a graphic designer. It has a text entry box in it for no reason? > > I make a class and begin typing in its comment; I get continuous annoying drop-down lists which aren't relevant for documentation. The text is badly lagged; I count 5 seconds before what I type appears on the screen. > > I get a dialog asking me for my full name (nice! Much better than initials). The text in the dialog is badly aligned and not word-wrapped correctly. Text should be left-aligned or fully justified, unless it's Right-to-Left text. Also, use real right-arrows! Pharo supports Unicode! The dialog did not appear until after I had already made three classes - surely it should ask for my name as soon as I start making any source changes to the system? > > I type in some code. The auto-drop-down thing keeps guessing what I'm typing, even when I'm typing comments. It is starting to annoy me. Some more time disabling preferences seems to fix this. > > I think that's enough for now. The new user experience needs to be worked on, in particular by making the downloading and setting up more intuitive, and by having a welcome message when the image is started. > > Perhaps the auto-completion stuff works better on faster computers. The environment is a lot better after disabling it. > > Gulik. > > > > > > > > -- > http://gulik.pbwiki.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Nov. 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Speech Klatt package on SqueakSource (was: Package name "SharedPool-Speech", "SharedPool-FFI", etc ?)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Thanks for cleaning VMMaker!!!!!!!!! ****REALLYYYYY**** Thanks a lot. On Nov 17, 2009, at 3:12 AM, David T. Lewis wrote: > On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 10:48:49AM -0500, David T. Lewis wrote: >> There is currently a package dependency for VMMaker that requires the >> entire Speech package (for KlattSynthesizerPlugin). This can be resolved >> through a minor refactoring of Speech, mainly to move the shared pool >> class KlattResonatorIndices into a separate package, e.g. "SharedPool-Speech". >> >> Are there any objections to adopting the package name "SharedPool-Speech" >> for this? By implication, we might also have "SharedPool-FFI" and so forth. >> >> If no objections, I'll make a SqueakSource project for Speech, starting >> with the Speech-md.9.mcz from Squeak 3.9a, and updating it as described. >> With that in place, VMMaker will be loadable with just the shared pool >> prerequisite, rather than the entire Speech package. > > I opened a SqueakSource project for the Speech Klatt package: > > MCHttpRepository > location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/Speech' > user: '' > password: '' > > This is the speech package that is present in Squeak images up to and > including Squeak 3.9. It is packaged here to make it available as a MC > package, and allow the VMMaker package to access the Speech shared pool > for use in KlattSynthesizerPlugin. The initial version in the repository > is the Squeak 3.9a version that I copied from http://source.squeak.org/39a. > I have updated it to recategorize the shared pool and other references > needed for VMMaker. > > I picked a couple of reputable soundings names out of a hat, thereby > nominating Marcus Denker and Andreas Raab as "developers". If anyone has > any sense of ownership over the Speech package, please speak up and I'll > turn the package over to you. > > The purpose of this change is to enable "VMMaker updateFromServer" to > first load the Klatt shared pools, then load VMMaker and various related > plugins. A similar update will be needed for FFI shared pools. > > Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Nov. 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Connectors

by Marcus Denker

On Nov 17, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: > Hi Alexandre, > >> I recommand you to give a try at Mondrian. >> http://www.squeaksource.com/Mondrian.html > > I tried to use Mondrian to visualize grammars, but found it difficult > to get something working that only remotely resembles > <http://www.svgopen.org/2009/papers/58-Interactive_Documentation_using_JavaS…>. > In the end I used Morphic, which was much easier and gave slightly > better results. Maybe Connectors can help to solve the problems I > have with the arrows? > I used to use Squeak for all my slides in the past (no keynote, no powerpoint). This often included connectors. Here is an example of a presentation for rendering ASTs and IR trees: http://www.slideshare.net/MarcusDenker/a-programming-language-babel http://www.slideshare.net/MarcusDenker/a-jit-as-a-system-service of course they where done by hand, not programmatically. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- denker(a)acm.org http://www.marcusdenker.de

Nov. 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Connectors

by Lukas Renggli

Hi Alexandre, > I recommand you to give a try at Mondrian. > http://www.squeaksource.com/Mondrian.html I tried to use Mondrian to visualize grammars, but found it difficult to get something working that only remotely resembles <http://www.svgopen.org/2009/papers/58-Interactive_Documentation_using_JavaS…>. In the end I used Morphic, which was much easier and gave slightly better results. Maybe Connectors can help to solve the problems I have with the arrows? Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

Nov. 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Connectors

by Alexandre Bergel

Hi Andrew, I recommand you to give a try at Mondrian. http://www.squeaksource.com/Mondrian.html Cheers, Alexandre On 17 Nov 2009, at 04:28, Andrew P. Black wrote: > I was recommending to a student that they look at Ned Konz's > Connectors package to help with a drawing project. I eventually > tracked downa fairly recent version in a SqueakSOurce project or > mine ... but it's very Squeak dependent. > > Specifically, it has dependencies on: > > ObjectPropertiesMorph > PartsBin > Vocabulary > PhraseTileMorph > TileMorph > SymbolListType > QHsmMorphicEventHandler > ObjectsTool > BookMorph > GraphicalDictionaryMenu > QHsmMorph > GenericPropertiesMorph > Player > TwoWayScrollPane > > A lot of these are incidental, e,g, the dependency on BookMorph is > there because the Connectors package Extends BookMorph with a method > that answers false to the question "isConnectable"? Still, the code > can't be loaded as-is. And some of the dependencies are clearly > deeper. > > Does anyone know if there is version of the Connectors package for > Pharo? Ned, if you are listening, would you be willing to put this > under the MIT license so that someone else could port it? > > Andrew > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Nov. 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] OSProcess - working on gnuplot

by Igor Stasenko

2 Bill & others. I started gnuplot to make an abstract layer for its functionality. Its not really matter, how it invokes the OSProcess, so feel free to replace/improve that part of code. And of course, its not for a single OS. There are GPWrapper which should deal with platform-specific crap, while rest of API should simply reflect the gnuplot api in convenient way. It was tested & run on windoze & unix(es). Potentially, it could be split on 2 packages (feel free to do it): - basic classes - platform-specific / OS-specific stuff Also, if i remember, the API is not fully covered, so feel free to add new protocol(s). Repository is writable, so do not hesitate to put your hands on it. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Nov. 17, 2009

[Pharo-project] Pharo 1.0 RC1 feedback.

by Torsten Bergmann

Michael van der Gulik wrote: >The new user experience needs to be worked >on, in particular by making the downloading and setting up >more intuitive, and by having a welcome message when the >image is started. Hi Michael, nice to see you here too. Pharo has (similar to Squeak) an open process to contribute and will depend on its contributors. So feel free to help making the download and first time user experience better. A start could be to continue working on the welcome workspace, so Damien is able to integrate it. There is already a wiki page to collect ideas: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/GettingStartedWorkspaces I also opened two new issues: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1455 http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1454 Thx Torsten -- Jetzt kostenlos herunterladen: Internet Explorer 8 und Mozilla Firefox 3.5 - sicherer, schneller und einfacher! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/atbrowser

Nov. 17, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] OSProcess - working on gnuplot

by Adrian Lienhard

Hi Dave, On Nov 17, 2009, at 01:40 , David T. Lewis wrote: [...] > If the above examples do not work for you, it is very likely due to > the > current inconsistencies between OSProcess and Pharo, for which I do > not yet > have a solution (I would welcome any tips here, I tried again last > night to > figure out what's wrong and gave up in frustration :-/ ). What is the simplest thing to do to reproduce the problem? Do we know if it is on all platforms? Does it work in a Squeak Trunk image? Maybe I or other people can help to get more insights about what goes wrong. OSProcess is certainly a very important package for Pharo, so we should try to get it working again. Thanks, Adrian ___________________ http://www.adrian-lienhard.ch/

Nov. 17, 2009