November 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Method versioning in Pharo images

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> We had to make new .sources for 1.0... and even if not: the problem is that the .changes can only > be 32MB, and that is reached fast. In 3.9, we even had to condense changes in the middle of the release cycle. > (This is what you get from never moving on from outdated technology....) > > What I would want to have is a server with all old code that than is queried by the image... yes but somebody else should code it because our plate is full. Stef > > Marcus

Nov. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Continuous Integration Server for Pharo?

by Tim Mackinnon

> I am currently working with Diego Kogan on the Continuous Integration Server for pharo. While implementing this in Smalltalk is interesting - have you looked at just using Hudson out of the box? Its a pretty trivial install and would get something running quite quickly to bootstrap features that might be interesting later? I often worry that we don't study/use the competition first to understand all of the good features. For example Hudson/Cruise will monitor for hung builds for you - they also have excellent web dashboards that give you great stats on whats happening. Sure to do it properly you would need a Monticello plugin to detect changes (and that might be a good project) - however to get going its pretty easy to have a timed build that runs every hour. The detail is then to just focus on getting something that will run from the command line - load some script from a base image and then pull in the relavent metacello? lineup - and report all transcript errors to an external file for Hudson to pick up? The second artifact could then be to take the produced image and then run unit tests from it - and again report the results to a file for output. Finally Hudson does a great job of fanning out to multiple machines to run Web Browser tests (which typically can take a bit longer) to get results from those as well. It seems like its potentially easy to focus on the build tool and not the script that it needs to run to test all of the relevant details? Tim

Nov. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] MPEG in Pharo depricated why?

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Speaking for myself only, my long-standing frustration with Squeak was the wide spread insistance that it *be* a toy. I never had a problem with people wanting to use it to make toys, but wanted to see Morphic used to simulate a user interface at least somewhat like what users had learned to expect over the past decades; in short, I wanted to see a tool slid under the toys. Enter Pharo. When I think of "business applications," I can't help picturing horrid things centering on Visual Basic (whichever version is hype-compliant this week) and people running around speaking in buzz words. However, I do see a need for good GUI construction, relational database access (can't stand the blasted things personnally, but they sure have their uses), sockets, the ability to launch and contol external processes, and some multi-media capabilities. Playing video is probably not as important as sound, and it is not nearly as important as sockets and database connectivity. However, I could easily envision displaying ultrasound clips and allowing a user to move around, select frames, etc. I would like to see Pharo get there eventually. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of John M McIntosh Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 4:21 PM To: Johannes Rasche Cc: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] MPEG in Pharo depricated why? Well I can't speak for the Pharo management, but let me run the hurdles for you. (a) license, is of course an issue for some folks. I'll attach the mpeg3Plugin.bundle license Technically I think this fails Pharo's license test. The OLPC folks ban it, so Viewpoints Inc funded me to build a GStreamer plugin for EToys on the OLPC, that works well on linux/windows but is difficult to install on os-x. (b) support. Personally I think someone should harvest the Quicktime work that we did in Sophie. That works on macintosh/windows, possible on Linux with some of the quicktime clone libraries? In the past the argument has been oh then you have to install Quicktime on Windows. But if you look around you'll notice *everyone* has installed iTunes for Windows because *everyone* has an iPod. Oh and it stealth installs Quicktime to support iTunes. (c) scope creep. I don't thinking, sound, video, dancing has been part of the "business apps" focus for Pharo. /* * * This file is part of libmpeg3 * * LibMPEG3 * Author: Adam Williams <broadcast(a)earthling.net> * Page: heroine.linuxbox.com * Page: http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com/html/mpeg3source.html (for Squeak) * LibMPEG3 was originally licenced under GPL. It was relicensed by the author under the LGPL and the Squeak license on Nov 1st, 2000 This library is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2.1 of the License, or (at your option) any later version. This library is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU Lesser General Public License for more details. You should have received a copy of the GNU Lesser General Public License along with this library; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA Also licensed under the Squeak license. http://www.squeak.org/license.html */ On 2009-11-29, at 3:13 AM, Johannes Rasche wrote: > Hi folks, > > before I started to use Pharo (which I appreciate very much - many > thanks all contributors!!), > > I did some experiments with MPEG in Squeak. > > Now want to continue. > > I like to know why it's not contained in Pharo. > > Searching keyword MPEG and Squeak I found only outdated stuff (on > SmalltalkConsulting of John McIntosh as well, who seems to contribute to Pharo too) and I was wondering that nobody seems to work with audio/video. > > questions > > (1) did you - Pharo key players - find MPEG code unsecure and decided to postpone for later reviewing? > > or > > (2) did you think that it has not to be part of standard Pharo > SmallTalk distribution and people may fileIn the related package from Non-Pharo Squeak? > > and > > (3) if I'm right with the last assumption, is there anyone who experienced MPEG under Pharo? > > Thanks in advance > > Johannes > > -- =========================================================================== John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com =========================================================================== _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Nov. 29, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Where to put removed stuff?

by Lukas Renggli

I would kill it, unless you or somebody else really cares and is willing to spend time and energy on it. Otherwise you waste your time and accumulate garbage you cleaned here somewhere else. Lukas On Sunday, November 29, 2009, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > 2009/11/29 Simon Denier <Simon.Denier(a)inria.xn--fr-qia <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'Simon.Denier(a)inria.fr');>> > > > Hi there > > > I think this has been discussed before, but I cant tell if there is an official rule for that (maybe it could be added to the wiki). > > > So let's say I have a patch which removes the Collection arithmetic protocols (332Â <http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=332>). Now this protocol is still quite nice and we can offer it as an extension package for those who need it. Where should I put this Collection-Arithmetic package? In its own squeaksource project? > > > I would that. Create a new MC package called Collection-Arithmetic on SqueakSource and I would not put it in Pharo Core or even in Pharo. However, it is accessible and loadable for those who want that external package. > > Cheers, > > Mariano > > > > Or is there a project for extra packages for Pharo? > > -- > Â Simon > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

Nov. 29, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Where to put removed stuff?

by Mariano Martinez Peck

2009/11/29 Simon Denier <Simon.Denier(a)inria.fr> > Hi there > > I think this has been discussed before, but I cant tell if there is an > official rule for that (maybe it could be added to the wiki). > > So let's say I have a patch which removes the Collection arithmetic > protocols (332 <http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=332>). Now > this protocol is still quite nice and we can offer it as an extension > package for those who need it. Where should I put this Collection-Arithmetic > package? In its own squeaksource project? > I would that. Create a new MC package called Collection-Arithmetic on SqueakSource and I would not put it in Pharo Core or even in Pharo. However, it is accessible and loadable for those who want that external package. Cheers, Mariano > Or is there a project for extra packages for Pharo? > > -- > Simon > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Nov. 29, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Method versioning in Pharo images

by Lukas Renggli

> Yes, but why 32MB? The pointer in the compiled method has only that size (presumabely 25 bits). Note that there is an efficient distributed database format for an ininite number of changes available. It is called Monticello 2. Lukas > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Marcus Denker > Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 12:18 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Method versioning in Pharo images > > > On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> However, for "independent" read "redundant." Â Take away the redundancy, and there is a single point of failure. Â That keeps surfacing as a good idea, and I fear the backlash once the redundancy gets removed in the name of saving space. >> > but if you want redunancy, provide a service that does that. One thing. And than reuse it. > > A log of course would provide redundancy. That's the definition. The only difference is that it would *only be a log*, and nothing else. > >> What is the source of the change log size limit? >> > > 32MB. > > Â Â Â Â Marcus > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

Nov. 29, 2009

[Pharo-project] Where to put removed stuff?

by Simon Denier

Hi there I think this has been discussed before, but I cant tell if there is an official rule for that (maybe it could be added to the wiki). So let's say I have a patch which removes the Collection arithmetic protocols (332). Now this protocol is still quite nice and we can offer it as an extension package for those who need it. Where should I put this Collection-Arithmetic package? In its own squeaksource project? Or is there a project for extra packages for Pharo? -- Simon

Nov. 29, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] MPEG in Pharo depricated why?

by John M McIntosh

Well I can't speak for the Pharo management, but let me run the hurdles for you. (a) license, is of course an issue for some folks. I'll attach the mpeg3Plugin.bundle license Technically I think this fails Pharo's license test. The OLPC folks ban it, so Viewpoints Inc funded me to build a GStreamer plugin for EToys on the OLPC, that works well on linux/windows but is difficult to install on os-x. (b) support. Personally I think someone should harvest the Quicktime work that we did in Sophie. That works on macintosh/windows, possible on Linux with some of the quicktime clone libraries? In the past the argument has been oh then you have to install Quicktime on Windows. But if you look around you'll notice *everyone* has installed iTunes for Windows because *everyone* has an iPod. Oh and it stealth installs Quicktime to support iTunes. (c) scope creep. I don't thinking, sound, video, dancing has been part of the "business apps" focus for Pharo. /* * * This file is part of libmpeg3 * * LibMPEG3 * Author: Adam Williams <broadcast(a)earthling.net> * Page: heroine.linuxbox.com * Page: http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com/html/mpeg3source.html (for Squeak) * LibMPEG3 was originally licenced under GPL. It was relicensed by the author under the LGPL and the Squeak license on Nov 1st, 2000 This library is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2.1 of the License, or (at your option) any later version. This library is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU Lesser General Public License for more details. You should have received a copy of the GNU Lesser General Public License along with this library; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA Also licensed under the Squeak license. http://www.squeak.org/license.html */ On 2009-11-29, at 3:13 AM, Johannes Rasche wrote: > Hi folks, > > before I started to use Pharo (which I appreciate very much - many thanks all contributors!!), > > I did some experiments with MPEG in Squeak. > > Now want to continue. > > I like to know why it's not contained in Pharo. > > Searching keyword MPEG and Squeak I found only outdated stuff (on SmalltalkConsulting of John McIntosh as well, who seems to contribute to Pharo too) > and I was wondering that nobody seems to work with audio/video. > > questions > > (1) did you - Pharo key players - find MPEG code unsecure and decided to postpone for later reviewing? > > or > > (2) did you think that it has not to be part of standard Pharo SmallTalk distribution > and people may fileIn the related package from Non-Pharo Squeak? > > and > > (3) if I'm right with the last assumption, is there anyone who experienced MPEG under Pharo? > > Thanks in advance > > Johannes > > -- =========================================================================== John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com ===========================================================================

Nov. 29, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Method versioning in Pharo images

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Yes, but why 32MB? -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Marcus Denker Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 12:18 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Method versioning in Pharo images On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > However, for "independent" read "redundant." Take away the redundancy, and there is a single point of failure. That keeps surfacing as a good idea, and I fear the backlash once the redundancy gets removed in the name of saving space. > but if you want redunancy, provide a service that does that. One thing. And than reuse it. A log of course would provide redundancy. That's the definition. The only difference is that it would *only be a log*, and nothing else. > What is the source of the change log size limit? > 32MB. Marcus _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Nov. 29, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Method versioning in Pharo images

by Marcus Denker

On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:27 PM, Michael Rueger wrote: > Marcus Denker wrote: >> On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: >> >>> What is the source of the change log size limit? >>> >> >> 32MB. > > Would it be possible with the current compiled method format to make the > source pointer a first class object? > yes.... now that there is a way to have state in methods, this is no problem. > A looong time ago I did that in VW and used it to keep most of the > sources in package files, reducing the size of the change log by quite a > bit. It would allow to have the source point to some remote location. > Marcus

Nov. 29, 2009