September 2008 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Thinking about Pharo distribution

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>>> I agree. Now I would really to see how we can integrate that. For example - overrides out - and removing duplicated functionality (AST once we get the new compiler). Stef >>> > I think it is *extremely* important to only have one download. > > Having pharo nicely bug-free and with green tests is useless if > every users > of it then uses another image. In addition, I don't want a system > where we > need to explain "which image to use?". > > On Pharo-Project, there will be *one* download, and it will be a one- > click image. > >>> meta-package 'Pharo packages' permit easy installation of these >>> packages. The wiki page is at: >>> http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Packages. >> >> The list is way to long, I don't use any of these packages and I >> wouldn't want to see them in a "base" image. > > It's not that bad... shout, e-completion, refactoring-engine and > OmniBrowser. The Regex will be in Pharo anyway > (it's one of the big mistakes of Smalltalk to not bring a standard > regexp, the result are many hard to understand > methods parsing strings in the base system... and no standard for > developers) > > If you look at younger people, e.g the students, they are used to > Eclipse. Refactoring, code completion and > syntax highlighting are for them not optional. For them this is what > an IDE does, there is no question about that. > > I think not providing that would be the wrong way to go. > > As for size: Most code in Sqeueak are abandoned experiments that > nobody uses, if we clean up, we have a lot of > space to grow for stuff that actually is useful. > > Marcus > > -- > Marcus Denker -- denker(a)iam.unibe.ch > http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Sept. 15, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSVN

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Yes we want to use that in pharo. Stef On Sep 15, 2008, at 5:06 PM, Gary Chambers wrote: > Nice to see the DiffMorphs being put to use in the screenshots (at > least) of SqueakSVN. > > http://planet.squeak.org/ > > Gary. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Sept. 15, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Thinking about Pharo distribution

by Marcus Denker

On 15.09.2008, at 17:36, Michael Rueger wrote: > Damien Cassou wrote: >> Hi, >> I've just started writing a wiki page which details the packages we >> plan to install in all Pharo distributions. In the Universe, the > > All or developer? > I think it is *extremely* important to only have one download. Having pharo nicely bug-free and with green tests is useless if every users of it then uses another image. In addition, I don't want a system where we need to explain "which image to use?". On Pharo-Project, there will be *one* download, and it will be a one- click image. >> meta-package 'Pharo packages' permit easy installation of these >> packages. The wiki page is at: >> http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Packages. > > The list is way to long, I don't use any of these packages and I > wouldn't want to see them in a "base" image. It's not that bad... shout, e-completion, refactoring-engine and OmniBrowser. The Regex will be in Pharo anyway (it's one of the big mistakes of Smalltalk to not bring a standard regexp, the result are many hard to understand methods parsing strings in the base system... and no standard for developers) If you look at younger people, e.g the students, they are used to Eclipse. Refactoring, code completion and syntax highlighting are for them not optional. For them this is what an IDE does, there is no question about that. I think not providing that would be the wrong way to go. As for size: Most code in Sqeueak are abandoned experiments that nobody uses, if we clean up, we have a lot of space to grow for stuff that actually is useful. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- denker(a)iam.unibe.ch http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker

Sept. 15, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Thinking about Pharo distribution

by Damien Cassou

On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 5:36 PM, Michael Rueger <m.rueger(a)acm.org> wrote: > Damien Cassou wrote: >> I've just started writing a wiki page which details the packages we >> plan to install in all Pharo distributions. In the Universe, the > > All or developer? We plan to release 2 versions of Pharo: - a pharo-core, dedicated to Pharo developers - a pharo-dev, dedicated to Pharo users Here, I'm talking about pharo-dev. Contrary to squeak-dev, pharo-dev will be official, this will be the public download by default whereas pharo-core will be hidden in the web pages. >> meta-package 'Pharo packages' permit easy installation of these >> packages. The wiki page is at: >> http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Packages. > > The list is way to long, I don't use any of these packages and I wouldn't > want to see them in a "base" image. You want neither syntax highlighting, nor code completion, nor refactoring tools? Then, you'd probably better stick with pharo-core :-) -- Damien Cassou Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

Sept. 15, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Thinking about Pharo distribution

by Michael Rueger

Damien Cassou wrote: > Hi, > > I've just started writing a wiki page which details the packages we > plan to install in all Pharo distributions. In the Universe, the All or developer? > meta-package 'Pharo packages' permit easy installation of these > packages. The wiki page is at: > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Packages. The list is way to long, I don't use any of these packages and I wouldn't want to see them in a "base" image. Michael

Sept. 15, 2008

[Pharo-project] Thinking about Pharo distribution

by Damien Cassou

Hi, I've just started writing a wiki page which details the packages we plan to install in all Pharo distributions. In the Universe, the meta-package 'Pharo packages' permit easy installation of these packages. The wiki page is at: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Packages. Please tell me what you think -- Damien Cassou Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

Sept. 15, 2008

[Pharo-project] SqueakSVN

by Gary Chambers

Nice to see the DiffMorphs being put to use in the screenshots (at least) of SqueakSVN. http://planet.squeak.org/ Gary.

Sept. 15, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Learning how to use Polymorph

by Gary Chambers

Hilaire, try this. Menus are something that hasn't fully been addressed by Polymorph yet so looks a little cumbersome (though less so if the indivdual parts had their own methods, like #fileMenu...). exampleWindowWithToolbars "Open an example window with toolbars." |win fileMenu tools dock text holder| win := StandardWindow new. fileMenu := win newMenu. fileMenu addToggle: 'Open' translated target: nil "would be model" selector: #openFile. fileMenu lastItem font: win theme menuFont; icon: MenuIcons smallOpenIcon; keyText: 'Ctrl+O'. fileMenu addToggle: 'Save' translated target: nil selector: #saveFile getStateSelector: nil enablementSelector: nil. fileMenu lastItem font: win theme menuFont; keyText: 'Ctrl+S'. fileMenu addToggle: 'Print...' translated target: nil selector: #print. fileMenu lastItem font: win theme menuFont; icon: MenuIcons smallPrintIcon; keyText: 'Ctrl+P'. tools := win newToolbar: {win newButtonFor: nil "if we had a model it would go here" getState: nil action: #openFile arguments: nil getEnabled: nil label: (ImageMorph new image: MenuIcons smallOpenIcon) help: 'Open file' translated. win newButtonFor: nil getState: nil action: #saveFile arguments: nil getEnabled: nil label: (ImageMorph new image: MenuIcons smallSaveIcon) help: 'Save file' translated. win newButtonFor: nil getState: nil action: #print arguments: nil getEnabled: nil label: (ImageMorph new image: MenuIcons smallPrintIcon) help: 'Print' translated}. holder := StringHolder new. text := win newTextEditorFor: holder getText: #contents setText: #contents: getEnabled: nil. dock := win newToolDockingBar. dock add: 'File' translated font: win theme menuBarFont icon: MenuIcons smallOpenIcon help: 'File operations' translated subMenu: fileMenu; addMorphBack: tools. win addMorph: dock fullFrame: (LayoutFrame fractions: (0@0 corner: 1@0) offsets: (0@0 corner: 0 @ dock minExtent y)); addMorph: text fullFrame: (LayoutFrame fractions: (0@0 corner: 1@1) offsets: (0@dock minExtent y corner: 0 @ 0)). win themeChanged; openInWorld Having no real model to perform the actions you'll get a walkback if any menu/tool item is chosen. Apologies for the requirement of #themeChanged near the end, must get around to fixing that! Regards, Gary. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hilaire Fernandes" <hilaire(a)ofset.org> To: "An open mailing list to discuss any topics related to an open-sourceSmalltalk" <pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Learning how to use Polymorph > 2008/9/15 Gary Chambers <gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com>: > >> Of course, if you want a window then you can use a StandardWindow >> (subclass >> of SystemWindow) that includes the TEasilyThemed trait and delegate >> requests >> for widgets to that instead. >> >> Hope that helps... > > Yep, I figure out during the week-end. I am now converting step by > step to Polymorph. > I see that Trait can really make such thinkgs easier. > > One think not obvious to me: how to pack a menu bar, toolbar in > StandardWindow, as you did for your professionnal application. > A canonical exemple will be very usefull > > Hilaire > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Sept. 15, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Re: Re: Building VM Freetype

by Norbert Hartl

On Mon, 2008-09-15 at 16:26 +0300, Igor Stasenko wrote: > 2008/9/15 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>: > > On Mon, 2008-09-15 at 14:44 +0300, Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> 2008/9/15 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>: > >> > On Mon, 2008-09-15 at 09:53 +0300, Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> >> 2008/9/15 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>: > >> >> > On Mon, 2008-09-15 at 03:36 +0300, Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> >> >> I managed to build squeak + freetype plugin on my ubuntu box. > >> >> >> Not sure, however how to package resulting binary. > >> >> >> > >> >> > I took a look at the svn repo and there is indeed no other > >> >> > option than installing the binary in the system. I wonder how > >> >> > the vm is usually packed. The links on squeakvm.org for the redhat > >> >> > and debian packages are disabled, too. > >> >> > > >> >> > I can help building debian packages. Maybe it would be good the check > >> >> > in the debian files into svn for easy package creation. > >> >> > > >> >> yes, > >> >> something like > >> >> 'make bin-package' > >> >> would be cool > >> >> > >> >> Btw, Ubuntu having a squeak in its binary packages collection, so i > >> >> think its better to contact with people who actually did it instead of > >> >> repeating doing same. But i can't remember who actually made it. > >> >> > >> > Ah btw. do you know apt-src??? Try to do > >> > > >> > apt-src install squeak-vm > >> > > >> well, it deals with source packages, not binary. People who care to > >> build squeak from sources should really get it from squeakvm.org > >> not from other sources. IMO. > >> > > I'm sure the sources are taken from squeakvm.org. It's just that a > > system like debian has source snapshots. So to build a certain > > version of a package you export those sources into the debian skeleton > > and build the binary from there. This way maintainer and others are > > able to build the same package from the same sources. If sources are > > updated you need to create a new version. It just differs in the way > > you do it. Using a tag from svn to get sources is not the way debian > > handles it. > > Yeah, but how would you deal with sources generated by VMMaker? > We having two sources participating in final result: > - VMMaker > - platforms source. > > unlike from C world, where everything in single package. > > Should such distribution include a VMMaker sources, and then , in some > way build everything from scratch (which requires to having some > version of squeak installed already)? > Otherwise you need to carry the snapshot of generated sources in this > package, which i really don't like. > I don't think there are much alternatives. Somehow you have to freeze the state of the sources. No need to recreate a fixed state with a tool like VMMaker. After VMMaker has finished it is just a bunch of C files. Creating a copy/snapshot of it isn't that bad even if includes svn and vmmaker sources. The rationale behind the deb-src is that there is e.g. a security team in debian that can patch the whole thing if they find a security problem in the sources. That means a debian package is the binary compiled from sources (snapshot) plus patches from the one maintaining the package plus patches from the debian team plus patches from the security team... :) The average user isn't using deb-src. The open source just enables you to do so if you have the need to. Including a plugin in the vm is good use case for that. You take the deb-src and adjust it to your need. If you find the sources being outdated you can email the maintainer. If you want to include stuff do the same. If it is all to tedious or slow you might try _being_ the maintainer ;) Norbert > That's why i'm thinking that best would to distribute binary, not > sources. And people who like to build everything from scratch should > be pointed to squeakvm.org (or any other site, where such binary came > from). > > We're getting back to discussion on squeak-dev, that debian people > don't want to include squeak in their main repository (or how do they > call it). Because squeak don't have a process which can recreate image > purely from source files, and because it is complete stupidity :) > > > > > Please have a look at the debian/changelog file. That is the file where > > the builder takes the version number from. A comment what has changed > > comes along with it. > > > > The easiest way to deal with this is to integrate the debian skeleton in > > the squeakvm repository. Than you can checkout svn and create a package > > from it. And someone needs to update the debian repository so the new > > vm is integrated in the next release. > > > > Norbert > > >

Sept. 15, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Re: Re: Building VM Freetype

by Igor Stasenko

2008/9/15 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>: > On Mon, 2008-09-15 at 14:44 +0300, Igor Stasenko wrote: >> 2008/9/15 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>: >> > On Mon, 2008-09-15 at 09:53 +0300, Igor Stasenko wrote: >> >> 2008/9/15 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>: >> >> > On Mon, 2008-09-15 at 03:36 +0300, Igor Stasenko wrote: >> >> >> I managed to build squeak + freetype plugin on my ubuntu box. >> >> >> Not sure, however how to package resulting binary. >> >> >> >> >> > I took a look at the svn repo and there is indeed no other >> >> > option than installing the binary in the system. I wonder how >> >> > the vm is usually packed. The links on squeakvm.org for the redhat >> >> > and debian packages are disabled, too. >> >> > >> >> > I can help building debian packages. Maybe it would be good the check >> >> > in the debian files into svn for easy package creation. >> >> > >> >> yes, >> >> something like >> >> 'make bin-package' >> >> would be cool >> >> >> >> Btw, Ubuntu having a squeak in its binary packages collection, so i >> >> think its better to contact with people who actually did it instead of >> >> repeating doing same. But i can't remember who actually made it. >> >> >> > Ah btw. do you know apt-src??? Try to do >> > >> > apt-src install squeak-vm >> > >> well, it deals with source packages, not binary. People who care to >> build squeak from sources should really get it from squeakvm.org >> not from other sources. IMO. >> > I'm sure the sources are taken from squeakvm.org. It's just that a > system like debian has source snapshots. So to build a certain > version of a package you export those sources into the debian skeleton > and build the binary from there. This way maintainer and others are > able to build the same package from the same sources. If sources are > updated you need to create a new version. It just differs in the way > you do it. Using a tag from svn to get sources is not the way debian > handles it. Yeah, but how would you deal with sources generated by VMMaker? We having two sources participating in final result: - VMMaker - platforms source. unlike from C world, where everything in single package. Should such distribution include a VMMaker sources, and then , in some way build everything from scratch (which requires to having some version of squeak installed already)? Otherwise you need to carry the snapshot of generated sources in this package, which i really don't like. That's why i'm thinking that best would to distribute binary, not sources. And people who like to build everything from scratch should be pointed to squeakvm.org (or any other site, where such binary came from). We're getting back to discussion on squeak-dev, that debian people don't want to include squeak in their main repository (or how do they call it). Because squeak don't have a process which can recreate image purely from source files, and because it is complete stupidity :) > > Please have a look at the debian/changelog file. That is the file where > the builder takes the version number from. A comment what has changed > comes along with it. > > The easiest way to deal with this is to integrate the debian skeleton in > the squeakvm repository. Than you can checkout svn and create a package > from it. And someone needs to update the debian repository so the new > vm is integrated in the next release. > > Norbert > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Sept. 15, 2008