July 2008 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] A board for pharo

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi victor There will be no close door meetings. I really want that people say what they want to say. Now I like when people say something with code attached :) Just for the record, long long time ago in another galaxy three guys (stef, marcus and mike) started to think about a squeakfoundation. They wrote a chart and other silly documents. Then we mention it publicly and mike had to drop the ball for personal reason. The point of the squeakfoundation he had in mind was ok how people spending the time and energy in the community can protect from people just talking and wanting stuff. Stef > Hello, > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 4:05 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> > wrote: > [snip] >> I have the impression we really should care about transparency. >> Announcing a board and a board "model" without any prior >> announcement or >> discussion is not very sensible to other people involved. > > I agree completely, transparency is very important. > > Please, please no closed-door meetings! > > I also agree that the project needs strong leadership and should not > be "democratic". As long as decisions follow consensus most of the > time, the project ought to stay healthy. > > Best Regards, > > Victor Rodriguez. > > >> I can live with this board but e.g. I want to know what/where put >> Marcus and Michael in charge? Both are rather absent from this list >> and Marcus is "recovering slowly". If there were any decisions that >> must have been made while meeting in personal or by private email. >> That's what I mean. Please correct me if I missed something >> important. >> >> Maybe it is just whining from my site and not worth it. But I'm >> really >> sensible to such things and I (too) must organize very well where to >> spend my spare time. >> >> Norbert >> >> On Thu, 2008-07-17 at 09:30 +0200, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >>> Hello everybody >>> >>> We are happy to announce a board for Pharo! So far, Pharo has mainly >>> been "directed" by Stef who initiated >>> the project. Now that the community grows and Pharo makes progress, >>> the board will bring some more >>> structure into the decision making process. >>> >>> We don't have bylaws or any rules written down yet but the idea is >>> to >>> run it similar to the Apache board. That >>> is, new board members are elected by existing board members. The >>> rational is that we want to assure continuity >>> to be able to steadily push Pharo forward. >>> >>> The current board members are: >>> - Marcus Denker >>> - Stefane Ducasse >>> - Adrian Lienhard >>> - Michael Rueger >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

July 17, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Classes in more than one package

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

No it is not. May be davdi is refering to something else. Stef On Jul 17, 2008, at 10:57 AM, Alexandre Bergel wrote: > I did not know this was related to Omnibrowser. > > Alexandre > > > On 16 Jul 2008, at 15:13, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > >> ok, ok. I didn't know you were talking about OmniBrower as the >> context is missing.... >> Adrian >> >> On Jul 16, 2008, at 14:26 , Adrian Lienhard wrote: >> >>> I wonder where those packages come from in your image. In the most >>> recent version of Pharo I don't see an Installer nor Installer- >>> Test package. Also no such package exists in the Pharo repository... >>> >>> Adrian >>> >>> On Jul 16, 2008, at 13:49 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>> >>>> I also noticed that there are classe that are contained in more >>>> than one package. For example, InstallerTest is contained in the >>>> package Installer and Installer-Test. >>>> Same thing for the class Installer. It is contained in the >>>> package Installer and Installer-core. >>>> >>>> I guess that packages Installer-Test and Installer-Core must be >>>> removed, since there are categories in the package Installer. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Alexandre >>>> -- >>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

July 17, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] A board for pharo

by Victor Rodriguez

Hello, On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 4:05 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: [snip] > I have the impression we really should care about transparency. > Announcing a board and a board "model" without any prior announcement or > discussion is not very sensible to other people involved. I agree completely, transparency is very important. Please, please no closed-door meetings! I also agree that the project needs strong leadership and should not be "democratic". As long as decisions follow consensus most of the time, the project ought to stay healthy. Best Regards, Victor Rodriguez. > I can live with this board but e.g. I want to know what/where put > Marcus and Michael in charge? Both are rather absent from this list > and Marcus is "recovering slowly". If there were any decisions that > must have been made while meeting in personal or by private email. > That's what I mean. Please correct me if I missed something important. > > Maybe it is just whining from my site and not worth it. But I'm really > sensible to such things and I (too) must organize very well where to > spend my spare time. > > Norbert > > On Thu, 2008-07-17 at 09:30 +0200, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> Hello everybody >> >> We are happy to announce a board for Pharo! So far, Pharo has mainly >> been "directed" by Stef who initiated >> the project. Now that the community grows and Pharo makes progress, >> the board will bring some more >> structure into the decision making process. >> >> We don't have bylaws or any rules written down yet but the idea is to >> run it similar to the Apache board. That >> is, new board members are elected by existing board members. The >> rational is that we want to assure continuity >> to be able to steadily push Pharo forward. >> >> The current board members are: >> - Marcus Denker >> - Stefane Ducasse >> - Adrian Lienhard >> - Michael Rueger >> >> Stef >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

July 17, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] A board for pharo

by Adrian Lienhard

Hi Norbert, I can understand your concerns. It may look a bit like the announced board members take over without being based on the community. Of course there is no such intent and I think the processes should be transparent and the interests of the community should always be taken into account. Yet, we intentionally chose not to do a democratic setup because of the negative experience we made with Squeak and its SqueakFoundation. The democratic setup and a board that didn't actively steer the direction of development and make decisions paralyzed the community because of the too diverging interests. This situation eventually lead to the decision to start Pharo. Therefore, we really want to make sure that we do not do the same mistakes again. And this is exactly also why I think its important to instantiate a board as early as possible. If we wait until a lot of people have joined (and I can imagine that this will happen as there does not seem to be much progress in Squeak right now), the risk is that we again loose our focus. Just to give an example: even if people come to Pharo and use it for EToys, I still want to be able to remove it. You ask why Marcus and Mike? On the one hand, both bring a lot of experience from managing previous Squeak releases (3.8 and 3.9) and both have a deep know-how from being actively involved in Squeak for many years. On the other hand, with Mike we have another guy from industry, so we have a balance between academia and industry (although I'm also involved in research with my PhD, I consider myself as an industry guy because netstyle.ch/cmsbox is the main reason I'm pushing Pharo). Cheers, Adrian On Jul 17, 2008, at 10:05 , Norbert Hartl wrote: > Hi, > > that is very very early for the installation of a "board". What > are the topics only a board can do? I think at this stage of project > existence it should be a goal to involve everyone participating as > much as possible. And I doubt the installation of a board supports > this. I think you first need a community that you want to "steer". > > I have the impression we really should care about transparency. > Announcing a board and a board "model" without any prior > announcement or > discussion is not very sensible to other people involved. > I can live with this board but e.g. I want to know what/where put > Marcus and Michael in charge? Both are rather absent from this list > and Marcus is "recovering slowly". If there were any decisions that > must have been made while meeting in personal or by private email. > That's what I mean. Please correct me if I missed something important. > > Maybe it is just whining from my site and not worth it. But I'm really > sensible to such things and I (too) must organize very well where to > spend my spare time. > > Norbert > > On Thu, 2008-07-17 at 09:30 +0200, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> Hello everybody >> >> We are happy to announce a board for Pharo! So far, Pharo has mainly >> been "directed" by Stef who initiated >> the project. Now that the community grows and Pharo makes progress, >> the board will bring some more >> structure into the decision making process. >> >> We don't have bylaws or any rules written down yet but the idea is to >> run it similar to the Apache board. That >> is, new board members are elected by existing board members. The >> rational is that we want to assure continuity >> to be able to steadily push Pharo forward. >> >> The current board members are: >> - Marcus Denker >> - Stefane Ducasse >> - Adrian Lienhard >> - Michael Rueger >> >> Stef >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 17, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] VeryPickyMorph

by Alexandre Bergel

Sorry, I should have done this before. Yes, there is a new entry. Cheers, Alexandre On 17 Jul 2008, at 11:38, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > Thanks Alex, > > Could you please also create an issue in the tracker (see at the > bottom of http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/HowToContribute)? > > Adrian > > On Jul 17, 2008, at 11:20 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: > >> A new version (134) of Morphic is waiting in PharoInBox. Note that >> it has been carefully merged with 133. >> >> Cheers, >> Alexandre >> >> On 16 Jul 2008, at 14:30, Adrian Lienhard wrote: >> >>> The comment says: "Contributed by Bob Arning as part of the >>> ObjectExplorer package" but I can't see where it would be used, >>> neither how this would be useful for other applications. >>> >>> I'd say, kill it! ;) >>> >>> Adrian >>> >>> >>> On Jul 16, 2008, at 13:53 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>> >>>> this class is referenced nowhere, maybe it could be removed. >>>> Anyone has an idea for what this class is useful? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Alexandre >>>> -- >>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

July 17, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Two commands are the identical

by David RÃ¶thlisberger

> More than one year ago I wrote the command "move to package...(p)" in OB. > I just discovered that a command "as extension method of package..." > recently appears. ok, I removed the latter in OB-Enhancements-dr.189. I got a feature request for such a command, but didn't notice that I was already there... David

July 17, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] VeryPickyMorph

by Adrian Lienhard

Thanks Alex, Could you please also create an issue in the tracker (see at the bottom of http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/HowToContribute)? Adrian On Jul 17, 2008, at 11:20 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: > A new version (134) of Morphic is waiting in PharoInBox. Note that > it has been carefully merged with 133. > > Cheers, > Alexandre > > On 16 Jul 2008, at 14:30, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > >> The comment says: "Contributed by Bob Arning as part of the >> ObjectExplorer package" but I can't see where it would be used, >> neither how this would be useful for other applications. >> >> I'd say, kill it! ;) >> >> Adrian >> >> >> On Jul 16, 2008, at 13:53 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >> >>> this class is referenced nowhere, maybe it could be removed. >>> Anyone has an idea for what this class is useful? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Alexandre >>> -- >>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 17, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] VeryPickyMorph

by Alexandre Bergel

A new version (134) of Morphic is waiting in PharoInBox. Note that it has been carefully merged with 133. Cheers, Alexandre On 16 Jul 2008, at 14:30, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > The comment says: "Contributed by Bob Arning as part of the > ObjectExplorer package" but I can't see where it would be used, > neither how this would be useful for other applications. > > I'd say, kill it! ;) > > Adrian > > > On Jul 16, 2008, at 13:53 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: > >> this class is referenced nowhere, maybe it could be removed. Anyone >> has an idea for what this class is useful? >> >> Cheers, >> Alexandre >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

July 17, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] A board for pharo

by Alexandre Bergel

hi Norbert, I like the idea of having a board. It makes people responsible and representative somehow. In my views, the board is not made to be static. Maybe people will leave and/or new people will be added to it. In any case, it is a good step forward. Cheers, Alexandre On 17 Jul 2008, at 10:05, Norbert Hartl wrote: > Hi, > > that is very very early for the installation of a "board". What > are the topics only a board can do? I think at this stage of project > existence it should be a goal to involve everyone participating as > much as possible. And I doubt the installation of a board supports > this. I think you first need a community that you want to "steer". > > I have the impression we really should care about transparency. > Announcing a board and a board "model" without any prior > announcement or > discussion is not very sensible to other people involved. > I can live with this board but e.g. I want to know what/where put > Marcus and Michael in charge? Both are rather absent from this list > and Marcus is "recovering slowly". If there were any decisions that > must have been made while meeting in personal or by private email. > That's what I mean. Please correct me if I missed something important. > > Maybe it is just whining from my site and not worth it. But I'm really > sensible to such things and I (too) must organize very well where to > spend my spare time. > > Norbert > > On Thu, 2008-07-17 at 09:30 +0200, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> Hello everybody >> >> We are happy to announce a board for Pharo! So far, Pharo has mainly >> been "directed" by Stef who initiated >> the project. Now that the community grows and Pharo makes progress, >> the board will bring some more >> structure into the decision making process. >> >> We don't have bylaws or any rules written down yet but the idea is to >> run it similar to the Apache board. That >> is, new board members are elected by existing board members. The >> rational is that we want to assure continuity >> to be able to steadily push Pharo forward. >> >> The current board members are: >> - Marcus Denker >> - Stefane Ducasse >> - Adrian Lienhard >> - Michael Rueger >> >> Stef >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

July 17, 2008

[Pharo-project] Two commands are the identical

by Alexandre Bergel

More than one year ago I wrote the command "move to package...(p)" in OB. I just discovered that a command "as extension method of package..." recently appears. One of these commands is redundant. Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

July 17, 2008