December 2008 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

[Pharo-project] cleaned pharo inbox

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Just that you know. I will continue later but cleaned already some old submissions

Dec. 19, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] New pharo-dev based on 10196

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Thanks damien this is cool to see you doing that. THANKS! Stef On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:32 PM, Damien Cassou wrote: > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Downloads?tm=2 > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Dec. 19, 2008

[Pharo-project] Traits in OB

by Alexandre Bergel

Dear List and David, I truly enjoy your browser (especially the superOB one :-). It would be really useful to know when a trait is selected what are the traits and classes that use it. I could make up something (e.g., textually displaying the list of users below a trait definition)... Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Dec. 19, 2008

[Pharo-project] New pharo-dev based on 10196

by Damien Cassou

http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Downloads?tm=2 -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

Dec. 19, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Parsing problem

by Bill Schwab

Stef, That's fine with me. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 273-6785 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr 12/19/08 3:08 AM >>> yes this is the point. On Dec 19, 2008, at 4:11 AM, Bill Schwab wrote: > Stef, > > If you a saying that assignment will be :=, I can _easily_ live with > that. > > Bill > > > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 273-6785 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > >>>> stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr 12/18/08 1:52 PM >>> > Gwenael is improving the parser/scanner > after if people wants to grab the code this is their problem > Our goal is not to end in endless squeaking discussions to build a > better system. > > Stef > > > On Dec 18, 2008, at 7:40 PM, Keith Hodges wrote: > >> Bill Schwab wrote: >>> Stef, >>> >>> FWIW, my biggest priority is to be able to use underscores in class >>> and >>> method names (very useful when talking to the outside world - I >>> don't >>> care if it's ugly, it works<g>). Pharo will help me reduce >>> Microsoft's >>> influence over my future, but while one source of underscores goes >>> away, >>> things like GSL and other libraries becoming increasingly important >>> to >>> me are littered with them. >>> >>> Many "details" along the way would apparently go away if the >>> compiler >>> and image stopped abusing $_. To those who insist that it saves >>> them >>> time, I have long asserted, and continue to do so, that the editor >>> can >>> map _ to := for them, as well as take out a preceding colon when >>> deleting $=. Done. The compiler gets its sanity back, and they >>> type >>> one character for assignment. >>> >>> Does that help at all?? >>> >>> Bill >>> >> But lets solve this for squeak and pharo, otherwise we will have to >> do it twice >> >> >> Keith >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 19, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Parsing problem

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

yes this is the point. On Dec 19, 2008, at 4:11 AM, Bill Schwab wrote: > Stef, > > If you a saying that assignment will be :=, I can _easily_ live with > that. > > Bill > > > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 273-6785 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > >>>> stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr 12/18/08 1:52 PM >>> > Gwenael is improving the parser/scanner > after if people wants to grab the code this is their problem > Our goal is not to end in endless squeaking discussions to build a > better system. > > Stef > > > On Dec 18, 2008, at 7:40 PM, Keith Hodges wrote: > >> Bill Schwab wrote: >>> Stef, >>> >>> FWIW, my biggest priority is to be able to use underscores in class >>> and >>> method names (very useful when talking to the outside world - I >>> don't >>> care if it's ugly, it works<g>). Pharo will help me reduce >>> Microsoft's >>> influence over my future, but while one source of underscores goes >>> away, >>> things like GSL and other libraries becoming increasingly important >>> to >>> me are littered with them. >>> >>> Many "details" along the way would apparently go away if the >>> compiler >>> and image stopped abusing $_. To those who insist that it saves >>> them >>> time, I have long asserted, and continue to do so, that the editor >>> can >>> map _ to := for them, as well as take out a preceding colon when >>> deleting $=. Done. The compiler gets its sanity back, and they >>> type >>> one character for assignment. >>> >>> Does that help at all?? >>> >>> Bill >>> >> But lets solve this for squeak and pharo, otherwise we will have to >> do it twice >> >> >> Keith >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Dec. 19, 2008

[Pharo-project] OB Monticello

by Damien Cassou

Hi, Dale Henrichs has implemented an ob-based version of Monticello. It works very well and contains most of the features of the current mc-browser. It's released under the MIT license. What do we want to do with it? You can download it at http://source.wiresong.ca/ob/OB-Monticello-dkh.68.mcz -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

Dec. 19, 2008

[Pharo-project] Fwd: Multi-core Pharo?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi I forward you the email Andreas wanted to send to the list. Here it is. Stef From: Andreas Raab <andreas.raab(a)qwaq.com> Date: December 19, 2008 6:41:21 AM CEST To: Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> Cc: Oscar Nierstrasz <oscar(a)iam.unibe.ch>, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr >, "Klaus D. Witzel" <klaus.witzel(a)cobss.ch>, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre(a)bergel.eu >, Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Multi-core Pharo? Hi Igor - I think I'm missing some context here. I don't know what sore spot Oscar is referring to and which political problems. From my perspective the situation is that we have released Hydra under MIT and that consequently no "political problems" exist (at least on this end). From the technical perspective you are of course right. The issues need to be addressed from various angles simultaneously. Hydra at this point is a proof-of-concept, no less, no more. To make this useful we need to address a variety of problems, including how to actually write programs in such a setup! ;-) This gets forgotten too easily - people assume that things get magically faster but really, Eliot is working on that part. Hydra requires some deep thinking about to structure applications properly so that they actually perform better than before. Of course, having smaller images will help tremendously because it allows more experimentation with smaller footprints. This is an issue that we continue to look at both from the shrinking as well as the construction approach. Cheers, - Andreas Igor Stasenko wrote: > 2008/12/18 Oscar Nierstrasz <oscar(a)iam.unibe.ch>: >> I didn't understand a thing :-( >> >> I seem to have touched a sore spot, but I do not know what the >> background >> is. >> >> Can someone summarize? Technically and politically, what is the >> current >> status of Hydra, and what are our options for using it as a basis for >> multi-core Pharo? >> > First, I think this discussion missing two important persons: Eliot > and Andreas. > Andreas is one, who behind the idea of Hydra VM. Eliot is making > serious rewritings of squeak VM (namely Cog). > There are plans to merge Hydra & Cog and continue with a new VM. > This is beneficial in many aspects: i really think that best for all > of us is to join efforts to produce better VM, instead in having > multiple branches Squeak/Cog/Hydra VMs. > Currently, works on Hydra is suspended because the more changes i do, > the harder it would be to merge with Cog. > Merging mess of low-structured low-level code of VMMaker is tough > task, so i don't want to make it harder. :) > Moreover, Hydra initially was proposed as experiment initiated by > Qwaq, implemented by me. It turned out to be successfull one. :) > But to leverage it, we need a much more than just VM - we need people > who think/know how to adopt things to get benefits from > multithreading. > Squeak images simply not ready for this. We should have a better ways > to scale: instead of loading bloated images (each for own interpter), > we should think how to lessen the bloat and use single central image, > which then managing smaller/nimble ones. > That's why i keep making noise about modularity: we need modules which > can be easily installed and run more or less standalone without > cross-package dependencies. > There is nothing wonderful in Hydra alone: we should attack the > problem from both ends - language side and VM. >> - on >> >> On Dec 18, 2008, at 10:08, stephane ducasse wrote: >> >>> Ok this is clearer now. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> On Dec 18, 2008, at 9:40 AM, Klaus D. Witzel wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:13:11 +0100, Stef wrote: >>>> >>>>> Klaus >>>>> >>>>> if you want to have a clear answer from esug: >>>> You're mixing up things here. If Pharo people want to run Hydra >>>> on their >>>> Mac, they could approach ESUG for funding. >>>> >>>>> - follow the process (cf the web page) >>>>> - write a clear request >>>> Since you (not me) would be the benefitor, go ahead. I was only >>>> the man >>>> who suggested the combination. Don't blame the messenger, don't >>>> put your >>>> work on him. Is this clear now? >>>> >>>>> So far it was a little mail about moebius and not Hydra. >>>> Yes, clear. But it is the same developer, namely Igor, who would >>>> do that >>>> for Pharo Mac users. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Klaus >>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> >>>>> PS: ESUG has a board and we discuss and vote before taking >>>>> decision. >>>> Really? ;) to me you seem to be more concerned about your own >>>> political >>>> attitude than about getting Hydra to the Mac/Pharo community. >>>> >>>> Please take notice that I know precisely how the democratic >>>> process in >>>> the ESUG board is supposed to work, no lecture necessary from >>>> your side. You >>>> are wasting time (not the first time with me). >>>> >>>>> On Dec 17, 2008, at 7:58 PM, Klaus D. Witzel wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Alex, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sorry I'm just a frequent reader of the Pharo mailing list, >>>>>> so >>>>>> here's my response by email. Feel free to forward it. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:11:52 +0100, you wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Igor and Klaus, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Having a description about Hydra will really help promoting your >>>>>>> project. >>>>>>> Maybe we could continue what I started to write... >>>>>> The Hydra VM is usable as is and in production, serving heavy >>>>>> used >>>>>> Croquet site, IIRC. Hydra has everything you need for the Multi- >>>>>> core VM of >>>>>> Squeak: >>>>>> >>>>>> - launch and control multiple .images in native threads >>>>>> - control these threads from the Smalltalk language level >>>>>> - communicate beween .images through channels >>>>>> - any number of related/unrelated .images can be run >>>>>> >>>>>> What is not done yet (Igor would correct me) is making Hydra >>>>>> available >>>>>> on Mac and Linux(en). >>>>>> >>>>>> In light of recent discussion with Stef about ESUG founding, I >>>>>> would >>>>>> suggest you perhaps consider to make Hydra available for you >>>>>> Mac users. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Klaus >>>>>> >>>>>> P.S. Alex the "rest" of the discussion you recalled above (the >>>>>> paper >>>>>> you suggested) is about a very particular use of Hydra >>>>>> technology, formost >>>>>> for and by enthusiastic VM engineers to be "the first" who get >>>>>> it going. >>>>>> Hydra can do and does well without all that (without the >>>>>> cloning of object >>>>>> subgraphs "baby Hydras" from the running .image): just save >>>>>> an .image file >>>>>> and then start it up in Hydra. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 17 Dec 2008, at 09:52, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi folks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Has anyone looked at the Qwac Hydra stuff? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.qwaq.com/HydraVM/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2008-February/125719… >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There was quite a lot of discussion on squeak-dev ast >>>>>>>> February, but >>>>>>>> not much since then. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would really love to see a multi-core Pharo. If someone >>>>>>>> has an >>>>>>>> idea >>>>>>>> how this could be done, I would be interested to learn more. >>>>>>>> I think >>>>>>>> getting Pharo to exploit multi-cores could be a big selling >>>>>>>> point in >>>>>>>> the future ... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - on >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>>>>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>>>>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>

Dec. 19, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Parsing problem

by Bill Schwab

Stef, If you a saying that assignment will be :=, I can _easily_ live with that. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 273-6785 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr 12/18/08 1:52 PM >>> Gwenael is improving the parser/scanner after if people wants to grab the code this is their problem Our goal is not to end in endless squeaking discussions to build a better system. Stef On Dec 18, 2008, at 7:40 PM, Keith Hodges wrote: > Bill Schwab wrote: >> Stef, >> >> FWIW, my biggest priority is to be able to use underscores in class >> and >> method names (very useful when talking to the outside world - I don't >> care if it's ugly, it works<g>). Pharo will help me reduce >> Microsoft's >> influence over my future, but while one source of underscores goes >> away, >> things like GSL and other libraries becoming increasingly important >> to >> me are littered with them. >> >> Many "details" along the way would apparently go away if the compiler >> and image stopped abusing $_. To those who insist that it saves them >> time, I have long asserted, and continue to do so, that the editor >> can >> map _ to := for them, as well as take out a preceding colon when >> deleting $=. Done. The compiler gets its sanity back, and they type >> one character for assignment. >> >> Does that help at all?? >> >> Bill >> > But lets solve this for squeak and pharo, otherwise we will have to > do it twice > > > Keith > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 19, 2008

[Pharo-project] Issue 419 fixed (DNU: #spawnIt:)

by Torsten Bergmann

see http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=419 -- Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehÃ¶rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger

Dec. 19, 2008