December 2008 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Introducing Mars 0.1

by Esteban Lorenzano

On 2008-12-21 10:10:22 -0200, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> said: > Hi esteban > > Cooool. Sounds exciting. Thanks :) > What is the size of Mars? Currently is very small, but I really don't know how to messure this... there is a method counter or something around? > How did you get multiple windows :) They are just cocoa windows, created each time one is needed > Are call back from cocoa handled? Yes, but currently just "one-way" callbacks: cocoa fires a signal to squeak, and squeak know how to handle it. I'm studing a way to add (or simulate) squeak-to-cocoa callbacks, for solving some issues (like menu enabling/disabling, etc.). Basically, I'm studing Alien and ObjectiveC bridge to look what can I borrow ;) Esteban > > Stef > > On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:23 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: > >> Hi, I'm introducing Mars (just another world) >> >> Mars is a world for Squeak (and all it's forks) builded as an MVC on > >> top of Cocoa (OSX framework) and OmniBrowser. >> For that reason, Mars just runs on OSX environments. >> While this project has some similariries with SqueakGTK and > >> wxSqueak, it has big differences: >> 1) Mars is not a port of Cocoa for squeak, is just an MVC > >> implementation who uses Cocoa. Why that "subtle" distinction? well, > >> SqueakGTK is a full port of GTK+ library and for that reason, a > >> little big a and a little too complex. I'm following simplicity as > >> one of the project goals. >> 2) Mars is a plugin, and will run in any fork of squeak, and OB-Mars > >> (Mars world) will run in any fork of squeak who can load > >> OmniBrowser. This is a big difference with wxSqueak, wich is a fork > >> it self (and requires an special VM) >> >> And of course, while both efforts (SqueakGTK and wxWidgets) are > >> cool, none of them can be executed (and won't ever be) in small > >> environments, like the iphone, which is one of my main objectives > >> (using John's new VM and Edgar's work on minimal image building) >> >> Mars is MIT and can be downloaded following instructions from here: http: > //www.smallworks.com.ar/productos/Mars/Download >> For more details (history, blog, etc.), you can go to: http://www.smallwo > rks.com.ar/productos/Mars >> >> DISCLAIMER: Right now, Mars is vere-very alpha stage (though it runs > >> and can be used) and I would love any contribution in the form of: > >> bug reports (there will be a lot now), feature requests, comments, > >> and of course, code :) >> >> Cheers, >> Esteban >> >> -- > >> "Querer es suscitar las paradojas" >> Camus. El mÃto de SÃsifo. >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 22, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Notifiers

by Damien Cassou

Please ask me (by email, or on #pharo-project on IRC), Lukas or David. On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 1:57 PM, Bill Schwab <BSchwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: > If it comes to that, I will be happy to do so. However, I know NOTHING > about OB, so it will take some time. -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

Dec. 22, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] What does HODataBase do?

by David RÃ¶thlisberger

Hi Piers, > So, because I'm perverse like that, and because it's there, I grabbed > Damian's latest dev-image and ran the Code Critics against everything > in the image. Once the bottom of my macbook had returned to a bearable > temperature, I started going through the results and found scads of > references to the "undeclared variable" HODataBase and other HO* > names, mostly in the OBEnriched family of classes. Does anyone have > any idea what's going on? OB-Enhancements includes functionality to reason about the dynamics of applications whose source code is displayed in OmniBrowser. This functionality basically enriches the browser with dynamic information besides showing static information (classes, method, source code, etc.). In order to get such functionality, a reflective framework called Reflectivity has to be installed in the image and all methods have to be compiled with the NewCompiler. Then a package called Hermion (acronym "HO") defines how and what kind of dynamic information to collect and stores the information in database. OB-Enhancements does in some parts (ie. in the "enriched part") access the database of Hermion to bring back the dynamic information into various parts of the browser. If Hermion is not installed, these parts of OB-Enhancements simply do not get executed. This code nonetheless has to be placed in the OB code as the browser needs to decide where and how to display dynamic information, that's why some classes of Hermion get referenced in OB-Enhancements. I now use structural reflection to get rid of undeclared references in this code though, I forgot to do this in some methods in the first place, sorry. But now the undeclared references should be gone. Could you check? (you can load latest version of OB-Enhancements from source.wiresong.ca/ob using Monticello) Cheers, David

Dec. 22, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Notifiers

by Bill Schwab

Stef, If it comes to that, I will be happy to do so. However, I know NOTHING about OB, so it will take some time. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 273-6785 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr 12/22/08 3:15 AM >>> Send the code. Stef On Dec 21, 2008, at 11:44 PM, Bill Schwab wrote: > Sounds good. And in that case (OB Tools at the end of the list), I > urge > serious attention to having a notifier. Learning from history, and > all > that. > > Bill > > > > > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 273-6785 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > >>>> adi(a)netstyle.ch 12/21/08 5:31 PM >>> > Here is an answer for "what is Pharo?" > > There will be two images: > "Pharo-Core": the image in which the development of Pharo takes place > "Pharo": the image to develop your application with (= "Pharo-Core" + > IDE tools [1]) > > "Pharo" is the image that will be officially shipped (packaged as a > one-click image). "Pharo-Core" on the other hand will be important for > deployment as it has a low memory footprint. > > Cheers, > Adrian > > [1] http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Packages > > > On Dec 21, 2008, at 15:46 , Bill Schwab wrote: > >> Lukas, >> >> You are correct to question "what is Pharo?" We cannot hope to >> ensure >> that everything anyone ever does with Pharo will work - those kinds >> of >> promises are made only during political campaigns :) But, note the >> recent discussion of package integrity. It should be as easy as >> possible to install anything one wants, but the things that Pharo >> invites the user to install should be solid. Certainly, the >> development >> tools should fall into that category. >> >> For example, I have a love/hate relationship with the RB, but I >> certainly hope to see it integrated into Pharo. But given a choice >> between a polished presentation of the RB commands and a stable >> system, >> I'll go for the stable system. We should have both. >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. >> University of Florida >> Department of Anesthesiology >> PO Box 100254 >> Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 >> >> Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu >> Tel: (352) 273-6785 >> FAX: (352) 392-7029 >> >>>>> renggli(a)gmail.com 12/21/08 3:07 AM >>> >>> My understanding is that the OB tool set is the presumptive choice >>> for >>> Pharo - unless I'm wrong, that makes this a Pharo related topic, if >> only >>> to reopen the choice in light of your position. >> >> I don't know which is the official Pharo image? There is a plain one >> without any extras loaded that the Pharo team uses for their >> releases, >> and then there is one with additional tools loaded by Damien that >> also >> contains OB-Tools. >> >>> Do as you want, but >>> Object Arts had this idea and very quickly decided the simpler >> notifier >>> had a very essential role. They left the option, activated the >> notifier >>> by default, and strongly warned against deactivating it. That was >> based >>> on being bitten by the kinds of concerns I have documented here. >> >> Don't get me wrong. Feel free to add this preference and the >> additional dialog, but don't expect me to do it: >> >> http://mail.wiresong.ca/pipermail/ob-dev/2008-August/000580.html >> >> Lukas >> >> -- >> Lukas Renggli >> http://www.lukas-renggli.ch >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 22, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] knowing all the class using a trait?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

ok thanks I could not find it. Now I will look for it. Stef On Dec 22, 2008, at 10:45 AM, David RÃ¶thlisberger wrote: > >> is there a way to know the classes that use a given trait? > > From the UI point of view: In OB there is the context menu action > 'browse trait > users..." available for every trait. > > David > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Dec. 22, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue tracker & dev images

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

yes On Dec 22, 2008, at 10:42 AM, Damien Cassou wrote: > On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 5:58 PM, Michael Roberts <mike(a)mjr104.co.uk> > wrote: >> folks, I was looking at issue 364 which is a bug in the pharo-dev >> image. Have we defined what the bug process is for the dev image vs >> the core? I wasn't sure. I.e are we happy to collate both on the >> one >> tracker; do we have appropriate types; is it not expected; etc. > > pharo-dev is currently non-official but will soon become. I think we > should keep a single tracker. > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Dec. 22, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Inclusion of OB-Tools inside Pharo

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

I think that we should pay attention of the ratio of effort and number of people participating. My take would be to not include tools if they are not complete and at the same time may be create a group of people working on an specific issue for the next milestone. In the long run I would like to have less little bug fixes vs main improvements even if the little fixes are important. one of the question is how can we make significant progress as an open source project. Stef On Dec 22, 2008, at 11:30 AM, Michael Roberts wrote: > I'm interested at least in a discussion on the OB debugger. This is > because > > 1) there are definitely some bugs in the core debugger. Is it worth > trying to fix them? I think yes, but I'm not sure I have the skills > to identify and fix them. I just know from using the core debugger it > sure does some strange things. > 2) The core debugger is missing features: stack variables, arguments, > breakpoints. How hard is it to modify the core one? > 3) do we have enough volunteer effort to maintain two debuggers? I'm > not sure we do. > > I have only briefly used the ob debugger and I got a bit confused with > part of the UI so i'll need to look at it some more. What are folks > thoughts on this key part of functionality? > > Then more generally i'm not sure it makes sense to have different > tools in the core vs the dev image. I have to admit to not fully > understanding the 1.0 release plan but looking fwds to say 2.0, 3.0 > there would be benefit from pushing OB + tools into the core and just > maintaining a single high quality set of tools across all variant > images? > > cheers, > > Mike > > On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Damien Cassou <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com > > wrote: >> On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Bill Schwab >> <BSchwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: >>> Sounds good. And in that case (OB Tools at the end of the list), >>> I urge >>> serious attention to having a notifier. Learning from history, >>> and all >>> that. >> >> Hi Bill, >> >> I decided to load OB-Tools (a reimplementation of some tools using >> the >> ob framework) inside the pharo-dev images. I put OB-Tools inside the >> list of packages that will be part of the official Pharo >> distribution. >> This was a mistake because no discussion happened about this package >> at all on this mailing list. I've just moved OB-Tools to the list of >> pending packages. Now, we have to discuss (in this new thread): >> >> - Do we want an OB-based version of the tools inside Pharo? >> - Do we want all tools implemented by Lukas or just some of them? >> - What features are missing? >> - What are the bugs? >> - Who maintains this package? >> >> -- >> Damien Cassou >> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Dec. 22, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue tracker & dev images

by Adrian Lienhard

On Dec 22, 2008, at 10:42 , Damien Cassou wrote: > On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 5:58 PM, Michael Roberts <mike(a)mjr104.co.uk> > wrote: >> folks, I was looking at issue 364 which is a bug in the pharo-dev >> image. Have we defined what the bug process is for the dev image vs >> the core? I wasn't sure. I.e are we happy to collate both on the >> one >> tracker; do we have appropriate types; is it not expected; etc. > > pharo-dev is currently non-official but will soon become. I think we > should keep a single tracker. not sure... We have to take care that we do not end like Squeak Mantis with literally thousands of open bug reports. If we use the same tracker for Pharo-Core and Pharo, I strongly suggest that we tag the reports to clearly separate them. Adrian

Dec. 22, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Inclusion of OB-Tools inside Pharo

by Michael Roberts

I'm interested at least in a discussion on the OB debugger. This is because 1) there are definitely some bugs in the core debugger. Is it worth trying to fix them? I think yes, but I'm not sure I have the skills to identify and fix them. I just know from using the core debugger it sure does some strange things. 2) The core debugger is missing features: stack variables, arguments, breakpoints. How hard is it to modify the core one? 3) do we have enough volunteer effort to maintain two debuggers? I'm not sure we do. I have only briefly used the ob debugger and I got a bit confused with part of the UI so i'll need to look at it some more. What are folks thoughts on this key part of functionality? Then more generally i'm not sure it makes sense to have different tools in the core vs the dev image. I have to admit to not fully understanding the 1.0 release plan but looking fwds to say 2.0, 3.0 there would be benefit from pushing OB + tools into the core and just maintaining a single high quality set of tools across all variant images? cheers, Mike On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Damien Cassou <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Bill Schwab <BSchwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: >> Sounds good. And in that case (OB Tools at the end of the list), I urge >> serious attention to having a notifier. Learning from history, and all >> that. > > Hi Bill, > > I decided to load OB-Tools (a reimplementation of some tools using the > ob framework) inside the pharo-dev images. I put OB-Tools inside the > list of packages that will be part of the official Pharo distribution. > This was a mistake because no discussion happened about this package > at all on this mailing list. I've just moved OB-Tools to the list of > pending packages. Now, we have to discuss (in this new thread): > > - Do we want an OB-based version of the tools inside Pharo? > - Do we want all tools implemented by Lukas or just some of them? > - What features are missing? > - What are the bugs? > - Who maintains this package? > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Dec. 22, 2008

[Pharo-project] Inclusion of OB-Tools inside Pharo

by Damien Cassou

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Bill Schwab <BSchwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: > Sounds good. And in that case (OB Tools at the end of the list), I urge > serious attention to having a notifier. Learning from history, and all > that. Hi Bill, I decided to load OB-Tools (a reimplementation of some tools using the ob framework) inside the pharo-dev images. I put OB-Tools inside the list of packages that will be part of the official Pharo distribution. This was a mistake because no discussion happened about this package at all on this mailing list. I've just moved OB-Tools to the list of pending packages. Now, we have to discuss (in this new thread): - Do we want an OB-based version of the tools inside Pharo? - Do we want all tools implemented by Lukas or just some of them? - What features are missing? - What are the bugs? - Who maintains this package? -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

Dec. 22, 2008