November 2008 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo 1.0 release plan

by Marcus Denker

On 03.11.2008, at 10:55, Serge Stinckwich wrote: > 2008/11/3 Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch>: >> thanks, I forgot to list the one-click image. I added the plan to >> http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Milestones >> >> Concerning terminology, I suggest to name the official Pharo image, >> which >> will be packaged as a one-click image, "Pharo-IDE". And the one >> where the >> actual development of Pharo takes place is named Pharo-CORE. Using >> DEV is >> ambiguous because its not clear whether this image is supposed to >> develop >> applications or Pharo itself. > > Yes good idea, to have 2 differents names, but why Pharo-IDE ? There > is no IDE in the core version ? > Why not Pharo-stable and Pharo-unstable ? It's not the stability that distinguishes the two. The CORE does not have Omnibrower and RB and things like that. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- denker(a)iam.unibe.ch http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker

Nov. 3, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo 1.0 release plan

by Serge Stinckwich

2008/11/3 Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch>: > thanks, I forgot to list the one-click image. I added the plan to > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Milestones > > Concerning terminology, I suggest to name the official Pharo image, which > will be packaged as a one-click image, "Pharo-IDE". And the one where the > actual development of Pharo takes place is named Pharo-CORE. Using DEV is > ambiguous because its not clear whether this image is supposed to develop > applications or Pharo itself. Yes good idea, to have 2 differents names, but why Pharo-IDE ? There is no IDE in the core version ? Why not Pharo-stable and Pharo-unstable ? -- Serge Stinckwich IRD - UR 079 Geodes, MSI Team, Hanoi, Vietnam Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)] http://doesnotunderstand.org/

Nov. 3, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo 1.0 release plan

by Adrian Lienhard

thanks, I forgot to list the one-click image. I added the plan to http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Milestones Concerning terminology, I suggest to name the official Pharo image, which will be packaged as a one-click image, "Pharo-IDE". And the one where the actual development of Pharo takes place is named Pharo-CORE. Using DEV is ambiguous because its not clear whether this image is supposed to develop applications or Pharo itself. Adrian On Nov 3, 2008, at 10:15 , Damien Cassou wrote: > On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> > wrote: >> Is there anything important we missed? Any suggestions? > > - review pharo-dev images and make comments so that the official Pharo > image contains some dev tools and pharo-dev becomes useless. > > -- > Damien Cassou > Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good > luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu) > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Nov. 3, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Strange bugs?

by Damien Cassou

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 3:16 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > - hex removal (I do not remember why we removed it). Might be related to http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=115 -- Damien Cassou Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

Nov. 3, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo 1.0 release plan

by Damien Cassou

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> wrote: > Is there anything important we missed? Any suggestions? - review pharo-dev images and make comments so that the official Pharo image contains some dev tools and pharo-dev becomes useless. -- Damien Cassou Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

Nov. 3, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Strange bugs?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Nov 2, 2008, at 6:09 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > this mail is harsh at all. NOT missing :) sorry for the spam > > This person took the time to really try to understand the problems > he got. > > Now he was reacting to my email stating to a newbie that he should > have a look at pharo. > So there is no problem with that. > > Stef > > > On Nov 2, 2008, at 4:09 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: > >> >> On 02.11.2008, at 15:16, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> >>> Hi guys >>> >>> I would be interesting to understand >>> hese two points: >>> - times repeat changes >> >> There is no change of timesRepeat: in the image (and in the >> changeset). It has no versions other the _ to := rewrite. Thus >> there has been no wrong version of timesRepeat: at any point in >> Pharo. >> >>> >>> - hex removal (I do not remember why we removed it). >> >> The only sender of hex: was the method asHTMLColor, in Pharo, this >> was changed (bf) to not call hex: anymore. >> I guess this change removed the hex:, as there where no senders. >> >> It seems to have been harvested from this Squeak bugreport: >> >> http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6936 >> >> I personally think the critique we see down is far too harsh. If >> you had no bugs in 3.9, then this is because >> you used a stable, released version of 3.9. There is no such >> version of Pharo yet. If you would have used an unstable >> version of 3.9, you would have seen bugs, too. >> >> Marcus >> >> >>> >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>>> From: lists(a)moedae.net >>>> Date: November 2, 2008 12:36:59 AM CEST >>>> To: stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> >>>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction? >>>> Reply-To: taun <lists(a)moedae.net> >>>> >>>> More details about the timesRepeat and hex problems I had. I know >>>> when I found them I asked myself why someone would have touched >>>> timesRepeat and why hex would have been removed. Neither made any >>>> sense. Yet I also know my first view of each method in the image >>>> I was using was through the debugger after the problem had become >>>> apparent. >>>> >>>> timesRepeat background. >>>> >>>> Towards the beginning of this week, >>>> I downloaded the latest Pharo image. >>>> Opened and updated the image. >>>> Saved image. >>>> Used Monticello to loaded the application I was working on. >>>> Application had some OrderedCollections which were missing the >>>> last element value. >>>> Checked my loop limits and found them to be correct. >>>> Saw it was runnning my loop once rather than twice and this was >>>> happening at timesRepeat:. >>>> Debugged and stepped through including stepping into the >>>> timesRepeat: method. >>>> Saw timesRepeat had < rather than <=. >>>> Scratched my head wondering why on the world this would be. >>>> I checked the versions to see if there were initials and a >>>> previous version. There weren't >>>> Updated image. >>>> Ran my application and it was fine. >>>> Checked timesRepeat: and it was back to normal. >>>> Checked my code in Monticello and it had no overrides for >>>> timesRepeat:. >>>> >>>> A mystery. One guess would be in stepping through the code, the >>>> delete key was hit while in the timesRepeat: method and the >>>> method was saved. How I could delete, save then have to restart >>>> the debugging all without realizing it is also a mystery. I have >>>> two young kids so maybe one of them helped with the distraction. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As for the missing Color #hex:, I looked through the Pharo change >>>> log and found,... >>>> >>>> !ScriptLoader methodsFor: 'sapphire - scripts' stamp: >>>> 'stephane.ducasse 6/8/2008 22:28'! >>>> script124 >>>> >>>> | names| >>>> names := '39Deprecated-sd.12.mcz >>>> ... >>>> Cut lots of code from here but see below. >>>> ... >>>> Color class removeSelector: #hex:! >>>> >>>> "Graphics"! >>>> >>>> "GraphicsTests"! >>>> >>>> "Tests"! >>>> >>>> "Postscript: >>>> Leave the line above, and replace the rest of this comment by a >>>> useful one. >>>> Executable statements should follow this comment, and should >>>> be separated by periods, with no exclamation points (!!). >>>> Be sure to put any further comments in double-quotes, like this >>>> one." >>>> >>>> |repository| >>>> repository := MCHttpRepository >>>> location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/Pharo/' >>>> user: '' >>>> password: ''. >>>> (repository loadVersionFromFileNamed:'ScriptLoader- >>>> stephane.ducasse.434.mcz') load. >>>> ScriptLoader new update10034. >>>> ! >>>> >>>> ----End fileIn of a stream----! >>>> >>>> Taun >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "stephane ducasse" <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> >>>> To: "taun" <lists(a)moedae.net>, "Seaside - general discussion" <seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>> > >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2008 5:49:23 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada >>>> Eastern >>>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 1, 2008, at 5:56 AM, lists(a)moedae.net wrote: >>>> >>>>> Having not done a survey, I can only talk from my personal >>>>> experience. So far my personal experience is I have had about the >>>>> same number of issues in 2 weeks of using Pharo as in 2 years with >>>>> Squeak 3.9 and 3.10. >>>>> >>>>> In Pharo, some OmniBrowser functionality was broken and as I said >>>>> timesRepeat: was broken. It had a '<' rather than '<=' for the >>>>> loop >>>>> comparison so the loop ran one too few times. I ran an update >>>>> which >>>>> fixed both problems. However the update also changed the World >>>>> menu >>>>> and eliminated the flaps (I like the new menu and the flaps were >>>>> redundant). As someone who has used SmallTalk for over 20 years >>>>> and >>>>> someone who hopefully understands why Pharo is so dynamic at the >>>>> moment, I can live with the issues mentioned previously. When I >>>>> debugged my loop, got to the timesRepeat: method and saw the test >>>>> condition, it was obvious what was wrong. >>>> >>>> This is strange since I did not recall a change at that level. >>>> >>>>> I then performed an update in the hope that someone had already >>>>> fixed the problem. They had. I wanted to try out SmallFaces. I >>>>> loaded and started to test SmallFaces in the latest Pharo image. >>>>> The >>>>> code broke. It turns out Pharo's Color class was missing #hex:. A >>>>> method in the 3.9 >>>> >>>> This is strange since we started from 3.9 >>>> >>>>> and 3.10 images and used by SmallFaces. Again, a minor item to >>>>> fix, >>>>> but not if you are new to SmallTalk and Squeak/Pharo. >>>> >>>> I agree pharo is probably changing too fast for a new comers. >>>> I should have say: 'Sergio if you hate the long menus of squeak >>>> have a >>>> look at pharo. If one day you start to look at squeak and start to >>>> think that there >>>> are some really bad smell like core behavior depending on UI, then >>>> have a look at pharo' >>>> >>>> Note please report to us any problem you get for running your >>>> applications. >>>> >>>>> Before recommending the current version of Pharo to a new >>>>> SmallTalker, I think one really needs to ask oneself how they >>>>> would >>>>> react if while feeling lost trying to learn a new language and >>>>> environment, the menus for the environment suddenly changed >>>>> after an >>>>> update. Or their potential confusion when the environment doesn't >>>>> match all the existing tutorials. >>>> >>>> I agree. >>>> BTW: this is Smalltalk and not SmallTalk >>>> >>>>> I once worked at a company where we were growing so fast, every >>>>> day >>>>> I went to work, the office walls had moved. I started to have >>>>> dreams >>>>> about falling asleep at my desk and waking up to find my office >>>>> door >>>>> replaced by a wall. The growth was exciting because it was a >>>>> sign of >>>>> our success but it definitely made life difficult for new >>>>> employees. >>>>> This is Pharo at the moment. >>>> >>>> :) >>>> Good.! >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I would argue the inverse: Take soon the one click image with >>>>>> the new >>>>>> browser of david and the clean menu. >>>>> >>>>> Yes, when it is released and stable it would be better. But it is >>>>> neither at present. >>>> >>>> It depends what you call stable :) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Taun >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "David Mitchell" <david.mitchell(a)gmail.com> >>>>> To: "Seaside - general discussion" >>>>> <seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> >>>>> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 9:34:23 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada >>>>> Eastern >>>>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction? >>>>> >>>>> I agree with Stef, >>>>> >>>>> I moved my production code to Pharo last month and I've had no >>>>> issue >>>>> reports. >>>>> >>>>> I've loaded Seaside, MySql, and my own code. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 7:36 AM, stephane ducasse >>>>> <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 3:17 PM, Taun wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the real point Philippe made is a good one. It is not >>>>>>> good >>>>>>> for the >>>>>>> Squeak/Smalltalk community to point a new user to an alpha >>>>>>> product. The new >>>>>>> user should be pointed to a stable functional platform so they >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> concentrate on learning the language not the platform bugs. >>>>>> >>>>>> Come on we are a good group of people using pharo daily and it >>>>>> has >>>>>> less bugs >>>>>> than squeak. >>>>>> I know since I harvested the fixes. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Philippe's example of breakage was an example for why Pharo >>>>>>> might >>>>>>> not be >>>>>>> good for Sergio. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think that this is not true. >>>>>> Do you think that a newcomer is not overhlem by the squeak menu! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> As an additional example, I was using Pharo the other day and >>>>>>> while >>>>>>> testing one of my models, I discovered #timesRepeat: was broken. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would be really amazed that timesRepeat: would be broken in >>>>>> pharo. >>>>>> Can you tell us, which version and how to reproduce that? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Imagine Sergio running some simple sample code loops and getting >>>>>>> the wrong >>>>>>> answer. What is that going to do to his newly forming opinion of >>>>>>> Squeak? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Again, these are not criticisms of Pharo, simply reasons why >>>>>>> Pharo >>>>>>> might >>>>>>> not be the right tool for a beginning Squeak/Seaside user. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would argue the inverse: Take soon the one click image with >>>>>> the new >>>>>> browser of david and the clean menu. >>>>>> Pharo will have much more tests than any squeak distro. >>>>>> Pharo contains far less broken code than 3.9 or 3.10. >>>>>> >>>>>> After the point is that we are working on it so when you update >>>>>> you >>>>>> can get >>>>>> some glitches. >>>>>> But even with that I think that this is better than 3.9. >>>>>> >>>>>> Stef >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Taun >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Adrian Lienhard" <adi(a)netstyle.ch> >>>>>>> To: "Seaside - general discussion" <seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 12:45:32 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada >>>>>>> Eastern >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pharo currently is in alpha, so its surprising you expect it >>>>>>> to be >>>>>>> free of bugs. We are making a lot of progress, so sometimes a >>>>>>> change >>>>>>> breaks some unexpected functionality. Usually, though, this is >>>>>>> fixed >>>>>>> within few days. We will soon go to beta and then produce a >>>>>>> release >>>>>>> that is going to be maintained. That's where you can expect >>>>>>> stability. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Adrian >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Oct 27, 2008, at 17:25 , Philippe Marschall wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2008/10/27 stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr>: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi sergio >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> when you will be fit on the syntax and the environment. I >>>>>>>>> suggest >>>>>>>>> you to >>>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>>> the pharo image since it is really starting to get cleaner and >>>>>>>>> cleaner. >>>>>>>>> http://code.google.com/p/pharo/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't want to bash any of you but I have had some really bad >>>>>>>> experiences with Pharo. Stuff like ClassBuilder exploding in my >>>>>>>> face >>>>>>>> and OmniBrowser not working. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>> Philippe >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> seaside mailing list >>>>>>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> seaside mailing list >>>>>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> seaside mailing list >>>>>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> seaside mailing list >>>>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >>>>>> seaside >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> seaside mailing list >>>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> seaside mailing list >>>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> -- >> Marcus Denker -- denker(a)iam.unibe.ch >> http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Nov. 2, 2008

Fwd: [Pharo-project] Strange bugs?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi I do not know if you read the pharo mailing-list but here is what we got. This timesRepeat: bug is really strange because we never touched it. Anyway thanks for the time you spent trying to helping us understanding what went wrong. Stef Begin forwarded message: > From: Marcus Denker <denker(a)iam.unibe.ch> > Date: November 2, 2008 4:09:21 PM CEST > To: Pharo Development <pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Strange bugs? > Reply-To: Pharo Development <pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> > > > On 02.11.2008, at 15:16, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >> Hi guys >> >> I would be interesting to understand >> hese two points: >> - times repeat changes > > There is no change of timesRepeat: in the image (and in the > changeset). It has no versions other the _ to := rewrite. Thus > there has been no wrong version of timesRepeat: at any point in Pharo. > >> >> - hex removal (I do not remember why we removed it). > > The only sender of hex: was the method asHTMLColor, in Pharo, this > was changed (bf) to not call hex: anymore. > I guess this change removed the hex:, as there where no senders. > > It seems to have been harvested from this Squeak bugreport: > > http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6936 > > I personally think the critique we see down is far too harsh. If you > had no bugs in 3.9, then this is because > you used a stable, released version of 3.9. There is no such version > of Pharo yet. If you would have used an unstable > version of 3.9, you would have seen bugs, too. > > Marcus > > >> >> >> Stef >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: lists(a)moedae.net >>> Date: November 2, 2008 12:36:59 AM CEST >>> To: stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> >>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction? >>> Reply-To: taun <lists(a)moedae.net> >>> >>> More details about the timesRepeat and hex problems I had. I know >>> when I found them I asked myself why someone would have touched >>> timesRepeat and why hex would have been removed. Neither made any >>> sense. Yet I also know my first view of each method in the image I >>> was using was through the debugger after the problem had become >>> apparent. >>> >>> timesRepeat background. >>> >>> Towards the beginning of this week, >>> I downloaded the latest Pharo image. >>> Opened and updated the image. >>> Saved image. >>> Used Monticello to loaded the application I was working on. >>> Application had some OrderedCollections which were missing the >>> last element value. >>> Checked my loop limits and found them to be correct. >>> Saw it was runnning my loop once rather than twice and this was >>> happening at timesRepeat:. >>> Debugged and stepped through including stepping into the >>> timesRepeat: method. >>> Saw timesRepeat had < rather than <=. >>> Scratched my head wondering why on the world this would be. >>> I checked the versions to see if there were initials and a >>> previous version. There weren't >>> Updated image. >>> Ran my application and it was fine. >>> Checked timesRepeat: and it was back to normal. >>> Checked my code in Monticello and it had no overrides for >>> timesRepeat:. >>> >>> A mystery. One guess would be in stepping through the code, the >>> delete key was hit while in the timesRepeat: method and the method >>> was saved. How I could delete, save then have to restart the >>> debugging all without realizing it is also a mystery. I have two >>> young kids so maybe one of them helped with the distraction. >>> >>> >>> >>> As for the missing Color #hex:, I looked through the Pharo change >>> log and found,... >>> >>> !ScriptLoader methodsFor: 'sapphire - scripts' stamp: >>> 'stephane.ducasse 6/8/2008 22:28'! >>> script124 >>> >>> | names| >>> names := '39Deprecated-sd.12.mcz >>> ... >>> Cut lots of code from here but see below. >>> ... >>> Color class removeSelector: #hex:! >>> >>> "Graphics"! >>> >>> "GraphicsTests"! >>> >>> "Tests"! >>> >>> "Postscript: >>> Leave the line above, and replace the rest of this comment by a >>> useful one. >>> Executable statements should follow this comment, and should >>> be separated by periods, with no exclamation points (!!). >>> Be sure to put any further comments in double-quotes, like this >>> one." >>> >>> |repository| >>> repository := MCHttpRepository >>> location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/Pharo/' >>> user: '' >>> password: ''. >>> (repository loadVersionFromFileNamed:'ScriptLoader- >>> stephane.ducasse.434.mcz') load. >>> ScriptLoader new update10034. >>> ! >>> >>> ----End fileIn of a stream----! >>> >>> Taun >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "stephane ducasse" <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> >>> To: "taun" <lists(a)moedae.net>, "Seaside - general discussion" <seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>> > >>> Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2008 5:49:23 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada >>> Eastern >>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction? >>> >>> >>> On Nov 1, 2008, at 5:56 AM, lists(a)moedae.net wrote: >>> >>>> Having not done a survey, I can only talk from my personal >>>> experience. So far my personal experience is I have had about the >>>> same number of issues in 2 weeks of using Pharo as in 2 years with >>>> Squeak 3.9 and 3.10. >>>> >>>> In Pharo, some OmniBrowser functionality was broken and as I said >>>> timesRepeat: was broken. It had a '<' rather than '<=' for the loop >>>> comparison so the loop ran one too few times. I ran an update which >>>> fixed both problems. However the update also changed the World menu >>>> and eliminated the flaps (I like the new menu and the flaps were >>>> redundant). As someone who has used SmallTalk for over 20 years and >>>> someone who hopefully understands why Pharo is so dynamic at the >>>> moment, I can live with the issues mentioned previously. When I >>>> debugged my loop, got to the timesRepeat: method and saw the test >>>> condition, it was obvious what was wrong. >>> >>> This is strange since I did not recall a change at that level. >>> >>>> I then performed an update in the hope that someone had already >>>> fixed the problem. They had. I wanted to try out SmallFaces. I >>>> loaded and started to test SmallFaces in the latest Pharo image. >>>> The >>>> code broke. It turns out Pharo's Color class was missing #hex:. A >>>> method in the 3.9 >>> >>> This is strange since we started from 3.9 >>> >>>> and 3.10 images and used by SmallFaces. Again, a minor item to fix, >>>> but not if you are new to SmallTalk and Squeak/Pharo. >>> >>> I agree pharo is probably changing too fast for a new comers. >>> I should have say: 'Sergio if you hate the long menus of squeak >>> have a >>> look at pharo. If one day you start to look at squeak and start to >>> think that there >>> are some really bad smell like core behavior depending on UI, then >>> have a look at pharo' >>> >>> Note please report to us any problem you get for running your >>> applications. >>> >>>> Before recommending the current version of Pharo to a new >>>> SmallTalker, I think one really needs to ask oneself how they would >>>> react if while feeling lost trying to learn a new language and >>>> environment, the menus for the environment suddenly changed after >>>> an >>>> update. Or their potential confusion when the environment doesn't >>>> match all the existing tutorials. >>> >>> I agree. >>> BTW: this is Smalltalk and not SmallTalk >>> >>>> I once worked at a company where we were growing so fast, every day >>>> I went to work, the office walls had moved. I started to have >>>> dreams >>>> about falling asleep at my desk and waking up to find my office >>>> door >>>> replaced by a wall. The growth was exciting because it was a sign >>>> of >>>> our success but it definitely made life difficult for new >>>> employees. >>>> This is Pharo at the moment. >>> >>> :) >>> Good.! >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> I would argue the inverse: Take soon the one click image with >>>>> the new >>>>> browser of david and the clean menu. >>>> >>>> Yes, when it is released and stable it would be better. But it is >>>> neither at present. >>> >>> It depends what you call stable :) >>>> >>>> >>>> Taun >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "David Mitchell" <david.mitchell(a)gmail.com> >>>> To: "Seaside - general discussion" >>>> <seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> >>>> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 9:34:23 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada >>>> Eastern >>>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction? >>>> >>>> I agree with Stef, >>>> >>>> I moved my production code to Pharo last month and I've had no >>>> issue >>>> reports. >>>> >>>> I've loaded Seaside, MySql, and my own code. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 7:36 AM, stephane ducasse >>>> <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 3:17 PM, Taun wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I think the real point Philippe made is a good one. It is not >>>>>> good >>>>>> for the >>>>>> Squeak/Smalltalk community to point a new user to an alpha >>>>>> product. The new >>>>>> user should be pointed to a stable functional platform so they >>>>>> can >>>>>> concentrate on learning the language not the platform bugs. >>>>> >>>>> Come on we are a good group of people using pharo daily and it has >>>>> less bugs >>>>> than squeak. >>>>> I know since I harvested the fixes. >>>>> >>>>>> Philippe's example of breakage was an example for why Pharo might >>>>>> not be >>>>>> good for Sergio. >>>>> >>>>> I think that this is not true. >>>>> Do you think that a newcomer is not overhlem by the squeak menu! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> As an additional example, I was using Pharo the other day and >>>>>> while >>>>>> testing one of my models, I discovered #timesRepeat: was broken. >>>>> >>>>> I would be really amazed that timesRepeat: would be broken in >>>>> pharo. >>>>> Can you tell us, which version and how to reproduce that? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Imagine Sergio running some simple sample code loops and getting >>>>>> the wrong >>>>>> answer. What is that going to do to his newly forming opinion of >>>>>> Squeak? >>>>>> >>>>>> Again, these are not criticisms of Pharo, simply reasons why >>>>>> Pharo >>>>>> might >>>>>> not be the right tool for a beginning Squeak/Seaside user. >>>>> >>>>> I would argue the inverse: Take soon the one click image with >>>>> the new >>>>> browser of david and the clean menu. >>>>> Pharo will have much more tests than any squeak distro. >>>>> Pharo contains far less broken code than 3.9 or 3.10. >>>>> >>>>> After the point is that we are working on it so when you update >>>>> you >>>>> can get >>>>> some glitches. >>>>> But even with that I think that this is better than 3.9. >>>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Taun >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Adrian Lienhard" <adi(a)netstyle.ch> >>>>>> To: "Seaside - general discussion" <seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 12:45:32 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada >>>>>> Eastern >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction? >>>>>> >>>>>> Pharo currently is in alpha, so its surprising you expect it to >>>>>> be >>>>>> free of bugs. We are making a lot of progress, so sometimes a >>>>>> change >>>>>> breaks some unexpected functionality. Usually, though, this is >>>>>> fixed >>>>>> within few days. We will soon go to beta and then produce a >>>>>> release >>>>>> that is going to be maintained. That's where you can expect >>>>>> stability. >>>>>> >>>>>> Adrian >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 27, 2008, at 17:25 , Philippe Marschall wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> 2008/10/27 stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi sergio >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> when you will be fit on the syntax and the environment. I >>>>>>>> suggest >>>>>>>> you to >>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>> the pharo image since it is really starting to get cleaner and >>>>>>>> cleaner. >>>>>>>> http://code.google.com/p/pharo/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't want to bash any of you but I have had some really bad >>>>>>> experiences with Pharo. Stuff like ClassBuilder exploding in my >>>>>>> face >>>>>>> and OmniBrowser not working. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>> Philippe >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> seaside mailing list >>>>>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> seaside mailing list >>>>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >>>>>> seaside >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> seaside mailing list >>>>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >>>>>> seaside >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> seaside mailing list >>>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> seaside mailing list >>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> seaside mailing list >>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > Marcus Denker -- denker(a)iam.unibe.ch > http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Nov. 2, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Strange bugs?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

this mail is harsh at all. This person took the time to really try to understand the problems he got. Now he was reacting to my email stating to a newbie that he should have a look at pharo. So there is no problem with that. Stef On Nov 2, 2008, at 4:09 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: > > On 02.11.2008, at 15:16, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >> Hi guys >> >> I would be interesting to understand >> hese two points: >> - times repeat changes > > There is no change of timesRepeat: in the image (and in the > changeset). It has no versions other the _ to := rewrite. Thus > there has been no wrong version of timesRepeat: at any point in Pharo. > >> >> - hex removal (I do not remember why we removed it). > > The only sender of hex: was the method asHTMLColor, in Pharo, this > was changed (bf) to not call hex: anymore. > I guess this change removed the hex:, as there where no senders. > > It seems to have been harvested from this Squeak bugreport: > > http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6936 > > I personally think the critique we see down is far too harsh. If you > had no bugs in 3.9, then this is because > you used a stable, released version of 3.9. There is no such version > of Pharo yet. If you would have used an unstable > version of 3.9, you would have seen bugs, too. > > Marcus > > >> >> >> Stef >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: lists(a)moedae.net >>> Date: November 2, 2008 12:36:59 AM CEST >>> To: stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> >>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction? >>> Reply-To: taun <lists(a)moedae.net> >>> >>> More details about the timesRepeat and hex problems I had. I know >>> when I found them I asked myself why someone would have touched >>> timesRepeat and why hex would have been removed. Neither made any >>> sense. Yet I also know my first view of each method in the image I >>> was using was through the debugger after the problem had become >>> apparent. >>> >>> timesRepeat background. >>> >>> Towards the beginning of this week, >>> I downloaded the latest Pharo image. >>> Opened and updated the image. >>> Saved image. >>> Used Monticello to loaded the application I was working on. >>> Application had some OrderedCollections which were missing the >>> last element value. >>> Checked my loop limits and found them to be correct. >>> Saw it was runnning my loop once rather than twice and this was >>> happening at timesRepeat:. >>> Debugged and stepped through including stepping into the >>> timesRepeat: method. >>> Saw timesRepeat had < rather than <=. >>> Scratched my head wondering why on the world this would be. >>> I checked the versions to see if there were initials and a >>> previous version. There weren't >>> Updated image. >>> Ran my application and it was fine. >>> Checked timesRepeat: and it was back to normal. >>> Checked my code in Monticello and it had no overrides for >>> timesRepeat:. >>> >>> A mystery. One guess would be in stepping through the code, the >>> delete key was hit while in the timesRepeat: method and the method >>> was saved. How I could delete, save then have to restart the >>> debugging all without realizing it is also a mystery. I have two >>> young kids so maybe one of them helped with the distraction. >>> >>> >>> >>> As for the missing Color #hex:, I looked through the Pharo change >>> log and found,... >>> >>> !ScriptLoader methodsFor: 'sapphire - scripts' stamp: >>> 'stephane.ducasse 6/8/2008 22:28'! >>> script124 >>> >>> | names| >>> names := '39Deprecated-sd.12.mcz >>> ... >>> Cut lots of code from here but see below. >>> ... >>> Color class removeSelector: #hex:! >>> >>> "Graphics"! >>> >>> "GraphicsTests"! >>> >>> "Tests"! >>> >>> "Postscript: >>> Leave the line above, and replace the rest of this comment by a >>> useful one. >>> Executable statements should follow this comment, and should >>> be separated by periods, with no exclamation points (!!). >>> Be sure to put any further comments in double-quotes, like this >>> one." >>> >>> |repository| >>> repository := MCHttpRepository >>> location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/Pharo/' >>> user: '' >>> password: ''. >>> (repository loadVersionFromFileNamed:'ScriptLoader- >>> stephane.ducasse.434.mcz') load. >>> ScriptLoader new update10034. >>> ! >>> >>> ----End fileIn of a stream----! >>> >>> Taun >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "stephane ducasse" <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> >>> To: "taun" <lists(a)moedae.net>, "Seaside - general discussion" <seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>> > >>> Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2008 5:49:23 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada >>> Eastern >>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction? >>> >>> >>> On Nov 1, 2008, at 5:56 AM, lists(a)moedae.net wrote: >>> >>>> Having not done a survey, I can only talk from my personal >>>> experience. So far my personal experience is I have had about the >>>> same number of issues in 2 weeks of using Pharo as in 2 years with >>>> Squeak 3.9 and 3.10. >>>> >>>> In Pharo, some OmniBrowser functionality was broken and as I said >>>> timesRepeat: was broken. It had a '<' rather than '<=' for the loop >>>> comparison so the loop ran one too few times. I ran an update which >>>> fixed both problems. However the update also changed the World menu >>>> and eliminated the flaps (I like the new menu and the flaps were >>>> redundant). As someone who has used SmallTalk for over 20 years and >>>> someone who hopefully understands why Pharo is so dynamic at the >>>> moment, I can live with the issues mentioned previously. When I >>>> debugged my loop, got to the timesRepeat: method and saw the test >>>> condition, it was obvious what was wrong. >>> >>> This is strange since I did not recall a change at that level. >>> >>>> I then performed an update in the hope that someone had already >>>> fixed the problem. They had. I wanted to try out SmallFaces. I >>>> loaded and started to test SmallFaces in the latest Pharo image. >>>> The >>>> code broke. It turns out Pharo's Color class was missing #hex:. A >>>> method in the 3.9 >>> >>> This is strange since we started from 3.9 >>> >>>> and 3.10 images and used by SmallFaces. Again, a minor item to fix, >>>> but not if you are new to SmallTalk and Squeak/Pharo. >>> >>> I agree pharo is probably changing too fast for a new comers. >>> I should have say: 'Sergio if you hate the long menus of squeak >>> have a >>> look at pharo. If one day you start to look at squeak and start to >>> think that there >>> are some really bad smell like core behavior depending on UI, then >>> have a look at pharo' >>> >>> Note please report to us any problem you get for running your >>> applications. >>> >>>> Before recommending the current version of Pharo to a new >>>> SmallTalker, I think one really needs to ask oneself how they would >>>> react if while feeling lost trying to learn a new language and >>>> environment, the menus for the environment suddenly changed after >>>> an >>>> update. Or their potential confusion when the environment doesn't >>>> match all the existing tutorials. >>> >>> I agree. >>> BTW: this is Smalltalk and not SmallTalk >>> >>>> I once worked at a company where we were growing so fast, every day >>>> I went to work, the office walls had moved. I started to have >>>> dreams >>>> about falling asleep at my desk and waking up to find my office >>>> door >>>> replaced by a wall. The growth was exciting because it was a sign >>>> of >>>> our success but it definitely made life difficult for new >>>> employees. >>>> This is Pharo at the moment. >>> >>> :) >>> Good.! >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> I would argue the inverse: Take soon the one click image with >>>>> the new >>>>> browser of david and the clean menu. >>>> >>>> Yes, when it is released and stable it would be better. But it is >>>> neither at present. >>> >>> It depends what you call stable :) >>>> >>>> >>>> Taun >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "David Mitchell" <david.mitchell(a)gmail.com> >>>> To: "Seaside - general discussion" >>>> <seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> >>>> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 9:34:23 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada >>>> Eastern >>>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction? >>>> >>>> I agree with Stef, >>>> >>>> I moved my production code to Pharo last month and I've had no >>>> issue >>>> reports. >>>> >>>> I've loaded Seaside, MySql, and my own code. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 7:36 AM, stephane ducasse >>>> <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 3:17 PM, Taun wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I think the real point Philippe made is a good one. It is not >>>>>> good >>>>>> for the >>>>>> Squeak/Smalltalk community to point a new user to an alpha >>>>>> product. The new >>>>>> user should be pointed to a stable functional platform so they >>>>>> can >>>>>> concentrate on learning the language not the platform bugs. >>>>> >>>>> Come on we are a good group of people using pharo daily and it has >>>>> less bugs >>>>> than squeak. >>>>> I know since I harvested the fixes. >>>>> >>>>>> Philippe's example of breakage was an example for why Pharo might >>>>>> not be >>>>>> good for Sergio. >>>>> >>>>> I think that this is not true. >>>>> Do you think that a newcomer is not overhlem by the squeak menu! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> As an additional example, I was using Pharo the other day and >>>>>> while >>>>>> testing one of my models, I discovered #timesRepeat: was broken. >>>>> >>>>> I would be really amazed that timesRepeat: would be broken in >>>>> pharo. >>>>> Can you tell us, which version and how to reproduce that? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Imagine Sergio running some simple sample code loops and getting >>>>>> the wrong >>>>>> answer. What is that going to do to his newly forming opinion of >>>>>> Squeak? >>>>>> >>>>>> Again, these are not criticisms of Pharo, simply reasons why >>>>>> Pharo >>>>>> might >>>>>> not be the right tool for a beginning Squeak/Seaside user. >>>>> >>>>> I would argue the inverse: Take soon the one click image with >>>>> the new >>>>> browser of david and the clean menu. >>>>> Pharo will have much more tests than any squeak distro. >>>>> Pharo contains far less broken code than 3.9 or 3.10. >>>>> >>>>> After the point is that we are working on it so when you update >>>>> you >>>>> can get >>>>> some glitches. >>>>> But even with that I think that this is better than 3.9. >>>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Taun >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Adrian Lienhard" <adi(a)netstyle.ch> >>>>>> To: "Seaside - general discussion" <seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 12:45:32 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada >>>>>> Eastern >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction? >>>>>> >>>>>> Pharo currently is in alpha, so its surprising you expect it to >>>>>> be >>>>>> free of bugs. We are making a lot of progress, so sometimes a >>>>>> change >>>>>> breaks some unexpected functionality. Usually, though, this is >>>>>> fixed >>>>>> within few days. We will soon go to beta and then produce a >>>>>> release >>>>>> that is going to be maintained. That's where you can expect >>>>>> stability. >>>>>> >>>>>> Adrian >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 27, 2008, at 17:25 , Philippe Marschall wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> 2008/10/27 stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi sergio >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> when you will be fit on the syntax and the environment. I >>>>>>>> suggest >>>>>>>> you to >>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>> the pharo image since it is really starting to get cleaner and >>>>>>>> cleaner. >>>>>>>> http://code.google.com/p/pharo/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't want to bash any of you but I have had some really bad >>>>>>> experiences with Pharo. Stuff like ClassBuilder exploding in my >>>>>>> face >>>>>>> and OmniBrowser not working. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>> Philippe >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> seaside mailing list >>>>>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> seaside mailing list >>>>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >>>>>> seaside >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> seaside mailing list >>>>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >>>>>> seaside >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> seaside mailing list >>>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> seaside mailing list >>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> seaside mailing list >>>> seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org >>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > Marcus Denker -- denker(a)iam.unibe.ch > http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Nov. 2, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Rio's very minor dependency upon Null removed

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Nov 2, 2008, at 3:03 AM, Keith Hodges wrote: > for nullphobics :) I liked when you call me like that :) > > > see subject > > Keith > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Nov. 2, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Strange bugs?

by David Pennell

Just for the record - I think you guys are doing an awesome job. I'm extremely impressed at the level of effort, commitment and rate of progress that I've witnessed with the Pharo project. Keep up the great work! -david On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> wrote: > It's not that bad... there was *one* mail suggesting that Pharo is "too" > buggy (for what?), whereas in general people have expressed positive > experience. > > The only thing we can learn from this is to improve our communication, so > that people don't have wrong expectations. In the current case this means to > not only suggest people to move to Pharo but at the same time to say that we > are still in an alpha phase. Like this nobody will be disappointed and wrong > criticism can be prevented (or at least ignored). The web site will also > help to make things like this more clear in the future. > > Adrian > > On Nov 2, 2008, at 16:27 , Marcus Denker wrote: > > [...] > > But I really wonder how people came to the idea that any and each small >> interation of pharo needs to be bug-free... >> >> This reaction of the Squeak community to destroy anyone who dares to make >> a small mistake (and even calling this a mistake is a stretch) is very >> strange. >> One thing to learn in the Squeak community: Talking is good, Doing is bad. >> I only wonder how one will have a future with that kind >> of attitude. >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Nov. 2, 2008