October 2008 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] squeak sites not available

by Marcus Denker

On 21.10.2008, at 10:03, danil osipchuk wrote: > Hi all, > > As everybody have noticed squeak server is down. > I wonder - if the squeak map is somehow mirrored. I'd like to > install a bunch of packages into image but both PackageUniverse and > SqueakMap browser do not work (obviously). How do folks cope with > that? They dont. They just suffer silently. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- denker(a)iam.unibe.ch http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker

Oct. 21, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Removing default fonts

by Antony Blakey

On 21/10/2008, at 5:43 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > for the vision behind pharo > imagine all the implications behind > > â¢ Better for the better > â¢ Beauty to learn from > â¢ Not backward compatible > â¢ Clean, lean and fast > > We want a system in which > - we can plug different UI frameworks > - clean network, clean file system, clean fonts, clean events, > clean compiler... > - that we could bootstrap: this is one of the goal also > - with robust software engineering practices (packages with > documentation, tests, smalllint rules attached). But 'imagining implications' isn't really useful as objective input into decision making, or anything that you can measure progress, or even success against. I'll just point to the decision about FreeType - where are the goals/constraints from which that decision follows? Anyway, I'm not trying to piss anyone off, so I'll bow out of this discussion. Antony Blakey ------------- CTO, Linkuistics Pty Ltd Ph: 0438 840 787 The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. -- Martin Luther King

Oct. 21, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Removing default fonts

by Antony Blakey

On 21/10/2008, at 5:00 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > On Oct 20, 2008, at 11:44 PM, Antony Blakey wrote: > >> Another important class of constraints would be what packages must >> not be broken e.g. must Whisker still work?, and thus what packages >> can/should be removed. > > who said that? No one. It was a hypothetical. > have a look at the code and you will get the answer. > No giant spagetthi code in pharo. > I do not want to argue endlessly on that. Squeak is the forum for > that kind of discussions. I'm not arguing one way or the other, and as you (StÃ©phane) know, I'm doing a much more brutal pruning. I'm *only* suggesting that you develop some guidelines and principles that are objective, measurable, reasonable (as in, useful in reasoning) and useful for decision making, to guide the development and work that goes into Pharo. Antony Blakey -------------------------- CTO, Linkuistics Pty Ltd Ph: 0438 840 787 Lack of will power has caused more failure than lack of intelligence or ability. -- Flower A. Newhouse

Oct. 21, 2008

[Pharo-project] squeak sites not available

by danil osipchuk

Hi all, As everybody have noticed squeak server is down. I wonder - if the squeak map is somehow mirrored. I'd like to install a bunch of packages into image but both PackageUniverse and SqueakMap browser do not work (obviously). How do folks cope with that? regards, Danil

Oct. 21, 2008

[Pharo-project] OldSocket removal

by Damien Cassou

I've started working on OldSocket removal: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=275. I need someone to review my first changes. -- Damien Cassou Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

Oct. 21, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Removing default fonts

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

for the vision behind pharo imagine all the implications behind â¢ Better for the better â¢ Beauty to learn from â¢ Not backward compatible â¢ Clean, lean and fast We want a system in which - we can plug different UI frameworks - clean network, clean file system, clean fonts, clean events, clean compiler... - that we could bootstrap: this is one of the goal also - with robust software engineering practices (packages with documentation, tests, smalllint rules attached). Stef On Oct 21, 2008, at 8:47 AM, Marcus Denker wrote: > > On 20.10.2008, at 23:44, Antony Blakey wrote: >> >> >> And there must be some context behind wanting to remove eToys/ >> BookMorph. Is it obsolete/unused? Is it used only by a class of >> user that you explicitly don't wish to target? >> > > eToys is, implementation wise, not written very cleanly. The > implementors of etoys always knew 100% that "this hack is the last, > then we rewrite everything". If you > do that for 10 years, hmm, it shows in code quality. > > EToys, the one on the OLPC, is based on 3.8 plus *many* changes. > Etoys will never be based on 3.9 or 3.10. Thus the etoys in 3.10 (or > pharo) would be a fork indpependend > of the main eToy branch. Nobody would be interested in maintaining > that. > > But seriously, look at the code. It's a nice example for many > things. For example: the prototype will be the product. Or: Never > plan to redo everything. You will not. > It kind of validates the idea that *evolution* is the most important > property of software, and if we want to make progress, supporting > evolution is *the* thing to do. > The next revolution in software will be a system that supports > evolution. > > Etoys + the support are maybe (conservative estimate) 100.000 of > 280.000 lines of code in Pharo. Just imagine how much less > maintance, less bugs and in general > cleaner architecture we will have. > > Marcus > > -- > Marcus Denker -- denker(a)iam.unibe.ch > http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Oct. 21, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Removing default fonts

by Marcus Denker

On 20.10.2008, at 23:44, Antony Blakey wrote: > > > And there must be some context behind wanting to remove eToys/ > BookMorph. Is it obsolete/unused? Is it used only by a class of user > that you explicitly don't wish to target? > eToys is, implementation wise, not written very cleanly. The implementors of etoys always knew 100% that "this hack is the last, then we rewrite everything". If you do that for 10 years, hmm, it shows in code quality. EToys, the one on the OLPC, is based on 3.8 plus *many* changes. Etoys will never be based on 3.9 or 3.10. Thus the etoys in 3.10 (or pharo) would be a fork indpependend of the main eToy branch. Nobody would be interested in maintaining that. But seriously, look at the code. It's a nice example for many things. For example: the prototype will be the product. Or: Never plan to redo everything. You will not. It kind of validates the idea that *evolution* is the most important property of software, and if we want to make progress, supporting evolution is *the* thing to do. The next revolution in software will be a system that supports evolution. Etoys + the support are maybe (conservative estimate) 100.000 of 280.000 lines of code in Pharo. Just imagine how much less maintance, less bugs and in general cleaner architecture we will have. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- denker(a)iam.unibe.ch http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker

Oct. 21, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Removing default fonts

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Oct 20, 2008, at 11:44 PM, Antony Blakey wrote: > > On 21/10/2008, at 2:52 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >> First let's remove all the etoys/BookMorph >> Second clean Morphic >> Third clean a lot of the rest >> Fourth then we should be in position to have a smaller kernel >> and may be someone will start to clean and refactor the fonts. > > But these don't really define the purpose of Pharo e.g. Who is the > intended audience? > > In this thread it's already been determined that Pharo 'Must not > require FreeType', and someone said 'Must run on bare metal' and > 'Must not require external libraries'. > > Those are the kind of constraints that would immediately define what > can be added and what removed. > > Another important class of constraints would be what packages must > not be broken e.g. must Whisker still work?, and thus what packages > can/should be removed. who said that? We will not be backwards compatible with software that is not used and not maintain. > And there must be some context behind wanting to remove eToys/ > BookMorph. Is it obsolete/unused? Is it used only by a class of user > that you explicitly don't wish to target? have a look at the code and you will get the answer. No giant spagetthi code in pharo. I do not want to argue endlessly on that. Squeak is the forum for that kind of discussions. > > > Antony Blakey > -------------------------- > CTO, Linkuistics Pty Ltd > Ph: 0438 840 787 > > Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. > -- Albert Schweitzer > >

Oct. 21, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Refresh (alt+r) was useful

by Marcus Denker

On 21.10.2008, at 06:25, Damien Cassou wrote: > Hi, > > there is no "refresh" entry in the world menu anymore. It was > sometimes useful when the UI has some problems. Could you please readd > it somewhere? The shortcut key ALT+r is still working. > > It's in "Debug" Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- denker(a)iam.unibe.ch http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker

Oct. 21, 2008

[Pharo-project] Refresh (alt+r) was useful

by Damien Cassou

Hi, there is no "refresh" entry in the world menu anymore. It was sometimes useful when the UI has some problems. Could you please readd it somewhere? The shortcut key ALT+r is still working. -- Damien Cassou Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

Oct. 21, 2008