Ugh. Slight history lesson / disambiguation.

The phrasing „woke" actually came from „the left", first it was being „woke" about feminism, then this, then that.

Then, those who felt oppressed by the sexist arguments of extreme, „woke" fraction of feminism, or racist arguments of those posing as anti-racists (and I could go on), started to use it as a pejorative, for those pushing insane propaganda, and for the propaganda itself.

Then, those who called themselves / their positions „woke" in the past, started screeching that it is „extreme right vocabulary".

As multiple people pointed out, master repository doesn't have anything to do with slavery; as I pointed out there is need to feel butthurt about some words even if your ancestors were affected by the concepts they were also used for. So you points are completely invalid, virtue-signalling garbage.

But it usually takes „having the lived experience" of the woke garbage turning aginst you, to get one of the indoctrinated to leave their religion. And trying to do so doesn't belong on this forum, I just said what I felt needed to be said.

And with this, I'm back to lurking, I just wanted to clearly demonstrate why such debates have no merit (clearly the opposite) on prog. lang. forums/mailing list.

Everyone, keep on making Pharo great.

FROM: Steven Costiou steven.costiou@kloum.io
SENT: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 9:47 PM
TO: Rauš Miloslav Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz
CC: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org
SUBJECT: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming

So far, no windmill complained about "woke incursions".
"Woke" is extremely clear vocabulary, only used by - let us get straight to the point and not waste our time - modern nazis.

So, perhaps you misused the word and should document yourself extensively on the subject.
But your reply seems to point otherwise.
And you are the one feeling hurt because we want to recognize that vocabulary has an impact on how we perceive and conceive things.
What was that again about cowardise and virtue? :)

It is something to cope as we can with an annoying technical situation, it is another thing to ask to not consider political views because they are "woke" (which only purpose is to deny their legitimity without arguing).
Does the Pharo community support "anti-woke" argumentation?
This needs to be clear so that I can decide to leave the community or not.

Or perhaps, that is a misunderstanding.

Steven.

Le 2021-07-20 20:12, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :

Hi,

it's „highly probably" somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, but I wouldn't blame language (don't pretend to be obtuse when you want to be sneakily subversive).

I explicitly stated that fighting against actual slavery is better done by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows („extreme right vocabulary"; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list.

You can't erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder.

As, of course, you can't be bothered to know, I'm member of one of those nations called „Slavic" (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word „slave" came from our enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame „heirs" of those who enslaved us in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were colonizers as well ?

NO.

No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what happened in the past, before my father was born, etc.

Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community won't let themselves be pulled into it.

M.R.

FROM: Steven Costiou steven.costiou@kloum.io
SENT: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM
TO: Pharo Development List pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org
CC: Rauš Miloslav Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz
SUBJECT: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming

Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :

Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention

That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition).

The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country.

I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures".

Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried.

M.R.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Mackinnon tim@testit.works
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM
To: Pharo Development List pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org
Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming

Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change?

Tim

On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse stephane.ducasse@inria.fr wrote:

Sven

From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem.
I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master
and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction.
I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think.

S

On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe sven@stfx.eu wrote:

Hi,

For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master.

There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change.

Specifically:

This does not work

./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit
BaselineOfReddit

instead you have to say

./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/
BaselineOfReddit

It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-)

Sven

Bullshit bullshit bullshit.

It is not about feeling oppressed and stuff, it is about systemic racism that impregnated our vocabulary and that we are trying to get rid off.
We should say in the FAQ that we support the idea of the transition but that for now, technically, using "master" is easier with Pharo until anyone from the community takes her time to solve the project.

Woke + Virtue-Signalling => nazi words used by nazis to tell other nazis that they should nazify the discussion and kill every effort about any kind of social movement discussion.

• typical nazi arguments everywhere in your messages... We're not stupid.

Vocabulary and things will change. Pharo is political (in every way), so it has a political dimension and it will be discussed.
You can do nothing about it.
Just quit.

Le 2021-07-21 11:51, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :

Ugh. Slight history lesson / disambiguation.

The phrasing „woke" actually came from „the left", first it was being „woke" about feminism, then this, then that.

Then, those who felt oppressed by the sexist arguments of extreme, „woke" fraction of feminism, or racist arguments of those posing as anti-racists (and I could go on), started to use it as a pejorative, for those pushing insane propaganda, and for the propaganda itself.

Then, those who called themselves / their positions „woke" in the past, started screeching that it is „extreme right vocabulary".

As multiple people pointed out, master repository doesn't have anything to do with slavery; as I pointed out there is need to feel butthurt about some words even if your ancestors were affected by the concepts they were also used for. So you points are completely invalid, virtue-signalling garbage.

But it usually takes „having the lived experience" of the woke garbage turning aginst you, to get one of the indoctrinated to leave their religion. And trying to do so doesn't belong on this forum, I just said what I felt needed to be said.

And with this, I'm back to lurking, I just wanted to clearly demonstrate why such debates have no merit (clearly the opposite) on prog. lang. forums/mailing list.

Everyone, keep on making Pharo great.

From: Steven Costiou steven.costiou@kloum.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 9:47 PM
To: Rauš Miloslav Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz
Cc: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org
Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming

So far, no windmill complained about "woke incursions".
"Woke" is extremely clear vocabulary, only used by - let us get straight to the point and not waste our time - modern nazis.

So, perhaps you misused the word and should document yourself extensively on the subject.
But your reply seems to point otherwise.
And you are the one feeling hurt because we want to recognize that vocabulary has an impact on how we perceive and conceive things.
What was that again about cowardise and virtue? :)

It is something to cope as we can with an annoying technical situation, it is another thing to ask to not consider political views because they are "woke" (which only purpose is to deny their legitimity without arguing).
Does the Pharo community support "anti-woke" argumentation?
This needs to be clear so that I can decide to leave the community or not.

Or perhaps, that is a misunderstanding.

Steven.

Le 2021-07-20 20:12, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :

Hi,

it's „highly probably" somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, but I wouldn't blame language (don't pretend to be obtuse when you want to be sneakily subversive).

I explicitly stated that fighting against actual slavery is better done by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows („extreme right vocabulary"; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list.

You can't erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder.

As, of course, you can't be bothered to know, I'm member of one of those nations called „Slavic" (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word „slave" came from our enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame „heirs" of those who enslaved us in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were colonizers as well ?

NO.

No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what happened in the past, before my father was born, etc.

Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community won't let themselves be pulled into it.

M.R.

From: Steven Costiou steven.costiou@kloum.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM
To: Pharo Development List pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org
Cc: Rauš Miloslav Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming

Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :

Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention

That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition).

The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country.

I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english.
But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community.
Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community.
If that's trolling, all the same.

If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion.

Steven.

I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures".

Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried.

M.R.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Mackinnon tim@testit.works
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM
To: Pharo Development List pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org
Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming

Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change?

Tim

On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse stephane.ducasse@inria.fr wrote:

Sven

From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem.
I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master
and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction.
I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think.

S

On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe sven@stfx.eu wrote:

Hi,

For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master.

There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change.

Specifically:

This does not work

./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit
BaselineOfReddit

instead you have to say

./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/
BaselineOfReddit

It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-)

Sven

I agree with the fact that words shape our way of thinking, but how
does master in this context relates to slavery?

I would agree that a master/slave disk setup would directly relate to
that, but as I see there are no "slave" branches nor repositories. So
I really don't understand it.

As for Pharo being political, I have my doubts,

but calling people
names does not foster dialogue,

Le 2021-07-21 16:26, Esteban Maringolo a écrit :

I agree with the fact that words shape our way of thinking, but how
does master in this context relates to slavery?

I would agree that a master/slave disk setup would directly relate to
that, but as I see there are no "slave" branches nor repositories. So
I really don't understand it.

Sure, it was randomly chosen.
Perhaps it designates a martial art master, which totally makes sense for
the main branch that controls a software project.
Totally makes sense.

Of course everybody knows Microsoft does not really care (maybe some of
their employees, I don't know) and that is just marketing (again, maybe not
for people who feel concerned, but I will not speak for them).
In the meantime, if nazis were not trying to shut up the big-picture-idea,
those "discussions" would not happen.

As for Pharo being political, I have my doubts,

It is political by essence, as an open-source project, it is more
political because it promotes a vision, it is even more because it requires
funding that is found by many ways that involve choices and politics.

Then, the fact that you and your friends (you are a few here) want that we
don't speak about that kind of topics (it was the same for the code of
conduct) is political.
So, you, by arguing with me right now, are making it political.

What more do you need?

but calling people
names does not foster dialogue,

Exactly! I don't want to dialogue with nazis and hear their shit, I want
them to go away.

And don't play the naive card: using precise keywords "woke", "woke
incursion", "virtue-signalling", etc. are the mark of the nazis calling for
more nazis to help them shut social and political actions down.
It is factual. I am not the one insulting.

and certainly doesn't help building a
stronger community.

Best regards,

Esteban A. Maringolo

On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:18 AM Steven Costiou steven.costiou@kloum.io
wrote:

Bullshit bullshit bullshit.

It is not about feeling oppressed and stuff, it is about systemic racism
that impregnated our vocabulary and that we are trying to get rid off.
We should say in the FAQ that we support the idea of the transition but
that for now, technically, using "master" is easier with Pharo until anyone
from the community takes her time to solve the project.

Woke + Virtue-Signalling => nazi words used by nazis to tell other nazis
that they should nazify the discussion and kill every effort about any kind
of social movement discussion.

• typical nazi arguments everywhere in your messages... We're not stupid.

Vocabulary and things will change. Pharo is political (in every way), so
it has a political dimension and it will be discussed.
You can do nothing about it.
Just quit.

Le 2021-07-21 11:51, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :

Ugh. Slight history lesson / disambiguation.

The phrasing „woke" actually came from „the left", first it was being
„woke" about feminism, then this, then that.

Then, those who felt oppressed by the sexist arguments of extreme, „woke"
fraction of feminism, or racist arguments of those posing as anti-racists
(and I could go on), started to use it as a pejorative, for those pushing
insane propaganda, and for the propaganda itself.

Then, those who called themselves / their positions „woke" in the past,
started screeching that it is „extreme right vocabulary".

As multiple people pointed out, master repository doesn't have anything to
do with slavery; as I pointed out there is need to feel butthurt about some
words even if your ancestors were affected by the concepts they were also
used for. So you points are completely invalid, virtue-signalling garbage.

But it usually takes „having the lived experience" of the woke garbage
turning aginst you, to get one of the indoctrinated to leave their
religion. And trying to do so doesn't belong on this forum, I just said
what I felt needed to be said.

And with this, I'm back to lurking, I just wanted to clearly demonstrate
why such debates have no merit (clearly the opposite) on prog. lang.
forums/mailing list.

Everyone, keep on making Pharo great.

From: Steven Costiou steven.costiou@kloum.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 9:47 PM
To: Rauš Miloslav Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz
Cc: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org
Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main
renaming

So far, no windmill complained about "woke incursions".
"Woke" is extremely clear vocabulary, only used by - let us get straight
to the point and not waste our time - modern nazis.

So, perhaps you misused the word and should document yourself extensively
on the subject.
But your reply seems to point otherwise.
And you are the one feeling hurt because we want to recognize that
vocabulary has an impact on how we perceive and conceive things.
What was that again about cowardise and virtue? :)

It is something to cope as we can with an annoying technical situation, it
is another thing to ask to not consider political views because they are
"woke" (which only purpose is to deny their legitimity without arguing).
Does the Pharo community support "anti-woke" argumentation?
This needs to be clear so that I can decide to leave the community or not.

Or perhaps, that is a misunderstanding.

Steven.

Le 2021-07-20 20:12, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :

Hi,

it's „highly probably" somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding,
but I wouldn't blame language (don't pretend to be obtuse when you want to
be sneakily subversive).

I explicitly stated that fighting against actual slavery is better done
by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows („extreme
right vocabulary"; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just
divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list.

You can't erase history, and that some words that had negative
connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes
today is no wonder.

As, of course, you can't be bothered to know, I'm member of one of those
nations called „Slavic" (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender,
nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word „slave" came from our
enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame „heirs" of those who enslaved us
in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you
know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays
brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were
colonizers as well ?

NO.

No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what
happened in the past, before my father was born, etc.

Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community
won't let themselves be pulled into it.

M.R.

From: Steven Costiou steven.costiou@kloum.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM
To: Pharo Development List pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org
Cc: Rauš Miloslav Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main
renaming

Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :

Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent
of the master to main naming convention

That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling
response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing
master->main transition).

The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of
needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever
is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa /
China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country.

I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor
understanding of english.
But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in
general should leave the community.
Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke")
should leave the community.
If that's trolling, all the same.

If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably
you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion.

Steven.

I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of
"no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures".

Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at
least I tried.

M.R.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Mackinnon tim@testit.works
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM
To: Pharo Development List pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org
Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main
renaming

Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent
of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small
community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this
one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify
other things to make this an easier change?

Tim

On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse stephane.ducasse@inria.fr
wrote:

Sven

From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of
problem.
I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master
and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that
people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction.
I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think.

S

On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe sven@stfx.eu wrote:

Hi,

For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master.

There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of
options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change.

Specifically:

This does not work

./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit
BaselineOfReddit

instead you have to say

./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/
BaselineOfReddit

It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-)

Sven