[Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

Norbert Hartl norbert at hartl.name
Thu Feb 6 10:25:15 EST 2020



> Am 06.02.2020 um 14:45 schrieb horrido <horrido.hobbies at gmail.com>:
> 
> As I suggested earlier, my evangelism has been rather polarizing. There are a
> lot of people like yourself who don't appreciate my efforts. There a lot of
> people who do.
> 
> For example, when I attended the FAST conference in Salta, many people
> (Leandro Caniglia, Carlos Ferro, etc.) expressed their appreciation. Another
> example, members of TSUG (Bob Nemec, Norman Branitsky, Dave Mason, etc.)
> appreciate my efforts. I wonder, if I attended an ESUG conference, might I
> find supporters, as well?
> 
> At Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Quora, Medium, etc., there are many fans of
> my evangelism. Amazingly, there are supporters on this forum, too!
> 
> So how much weight should I give to your opinion? Should I now stop on your
> say so? Make a convincing case and I shall drop everything. I shall
> terminate JRMPC immediately and return all the money to LabWare (thereby
> disappointing over 120 participating students). I shall delete 
> smalltalk.tech.blog <https://smalltalk.tech.blog/ <https://smalltalk.tech.blog/>>  . I shall remove all my
> existing blogs and videos about Smalltalk from Medium and YouTube. Perhaps
> this will reverse the damage.
> 
> I await your case…
> 
Sorry, I was not clear in the last mail. I can't and I won't tell you what you should do or not. You can evangelize what you want but I would prefer if you have to evangelize, keep it to smalltalk and do not refer to pharo, not even with screenshots. And it would be nice if you wouldn't misuse this community for your needs.

You might have fans and everyone is allowed to have an opinion. But none of the people you mentioned I identify as member of this community. So it doesn't matter much to me.

The weight of my opinion? That I don't know. But as a member of the pharo board it has enough weight to not be neglected. And with this weight I want to tell you that you are one of the major annoyances in this community. 

I hope it is more clear this time.

regards,

Norbert


> 
> NorbertHartl wrote
>>> Am 05.02.2020 um 20:41 schrieb horrido <
> 
>> horrido.hobbies@
> 
>> >:
>>> 
>>>> It is your initiative, you should know, nobody asked you to do it
>>> 
>>> Well, that's a peculiar attitude. There are many, many programming
>>> language
>>> evangelists and I don't think anybody "asked" them to do it. They do it
>>> for
>>> the love of the language.
>>> 
>>> I hear what you're saying, and I understand fully. I just don't agree
>>> with
>>> it entirely.
>> 
>> I doubt that.
>>> 
>>> I think it's short-sighted. Smalltalk has long been criticized for being
>>> a
>>> secluded island, and now you want to do the same for Pharo? Even as I try
>>> to
>>> build bridges to the island?
>> 
>> Now, you just don't understand. We are being criticized for leaving the
>> island. From where you stand it looks that Smalltalk would still exist and
>> we are making an island in the sea of nothing.
>>> 
>>> You could ban everybody from this forum who aren't focussed 100% on Pharo
>>> and you'd have a much smaller community. You could ban everybody who is a
>>> Smalltalker. The result is a much more tightly focussed forum, clean and
>>> free from distractions. Fine. But what is the long-term cost?
>>> 
>> You don't understand. We don't usually ban people but we should. And I
>> don't care about the size of the community because the part of the
>> community that does not focus on pharo is useless to us. Is that so hard
>> to get?
>> 
>>> Smalltalk evangelism would come to an end. Why? Because frankly nobody is
>>> interested in the other Smalltalks. Pharo is where all the action is.
>>> 
>> Yes, and it is for a reason. It is because we did a hard and good job the
>> last 12 years. You just need to understand that this Smalltalk thing does
>> not exist if it ever has. 
>> 
>>> And without Smalltalk evangelism, I don't see a path for Pharo becoming
>>> more
>>> than a niche language. Pharo doesn't show up an *any* language popularity
>>> index. At least Clojure, Erlang/Elixir, and Haskell are in the top 30 in
>>> several places.
>>> 
>> And what kind of metric is that? And why the hell you think that Smalltalk
>> evangelising can change that? I cannot imagine a single reason that makes
>> that assumption hold.
>> 
>>> At Indeed, there are 18 job postings in the United States that mention
>>> Smalltalk, and none for Pharo. Even Clojure has 404, Erlang has 274, and
>>> Haskell has 519, pathetic though these numbers are.
>>> 
>> We are working on it. And if we do not succeed so be it. The one thing I'm
>> sure is that you are not helping.
>> 
>>> Yes, I also understand that there are many Pharoers who don't care about
>>> remaining niche. That's a tragedy.
>>> 
>> You really have to understand that IT changed since you've been active.
>> Software is omnipresent today meaning it enters all areas of live. And
>> most of these areas you can call a niche. Being mainstream does not make
>> things better!
>> 
>>> I would rather not have wasted the last five years of my life.
>>> 
>> I'm sorry for you but you did. And in my opinion you should stop that
>> because you do more harm than good. I know this just confirms you in
>> ongoing but so be it.
>> 
>> Norbert
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html>
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