[Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

Cédrick Béler cdrick65 at gmail.com
Wed Feb 5 15:22:29 EST 2020


> 
> I don't think conformance or non-conformance to ANSI is important. This is a
> red herring.


You think... it was important in lots of past discussions that is at the end pure waste of energy as, unsurprisingly, this thread. 

> 
> If Pharo becomes mainstream, nobody will care about ANSI conformance. Ditto
> for any other flavour of Smalltalk.

Yes... if...  

For now it’s not. 


> 
>> Pharo is Pharo, a Smalltalk descendant with its own life
> 
> And VisualWorks doesn't have its own life? How about VA Smalltalk? This is
> sophistry.

Yes but they are more like uncles ^^, eventually first cousins but clearly not brothers or sisters (this last sentence engages only my opinion and is again some sort of metaphors) ;-)

Side note: that’d be fun to do a genealogy tree for the Smalltalk family. Maybe that could lower the noise on such subjects. I’ll give it a go. 

Just found this slide from Oscar Nierstrasz

Cheers,

Cédrick 

> 
> 
> 
> cedreek wrote
>>> Le 5 févr. 2020 à 19:50, horrido <
> 
>> horrido.hobbies@
> 
>> > a écrit :
>>> 
>>> Yes, these are two completely different issues...
>>> 
>>> - Pharo is Smalltalk
>> 
>> As you state, you use Smalltalk as the superset of all Smalltalk
>> descendance, what Sven call ‘Concept’ and this is true to me.
>> 
>> But, as I understand it (I’m not a board member), if called « Smalltalk », 
>> then some people will ask (and debate) so that Pharo has to be conform to
>> ANSI Smalltalk standard (the standard approved on May 19, 1998). 
>> 
>> Pharo is a fork of squeak and can be seen as Smalltalk-80 grand-parent,
>> Squeak being the parent ^^. 
>> Pharo wants to emancipate as all child. Squeak actually had/have this
>> recurring question already [1].  
>> 
>> Pharo *from the start* decided not to be ANSI compliant as it is
>> orthogonal to the envisioned progress/changes (Trait are one first example
>> and this really was a hard discussion and probably what settled the fork).
>> 
>> I think Pharo founders wanted to avoid flaming wars again on design and
>> architectural decisions by trying to squeeze this aspect (not a pure
>> smalltalk so do no expect ANSI compliance) and now, as a result, we get
>> this backlashing thread where people feel Pharo don’t assume Smalltalk
>> heritage. Life is often ironic :-s.
>> 
>> Pharo is Pharo, a Smalltalk descendant with its own life, and even if they
>> share lots of the same ADN. 
>> 
>> My 2 cents,
>> 
>> Cédrick
>> 
>> [1] https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/172
>> <https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/172>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> - you don't want general Smalltalk discussion polluting this forum
>>> 
>>> I get it. But as I point out  here
>>> <http://forum.world.st/Fuzzy-Thinking-in-Smalltalk-tp5111111p5111191.html> 
>>> , Pharo is in a unique position and I would hope that the Pharo community
>>> is
>>> willing to participate in evangelizing Smalltalk.
>>> 
>>> If there is truly another avenue that is as effective, I'm all ears.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>>>>> On 5 Feb 2020, at 18:50, horrido <
>>> 
>>>> horrido.hobbies@
>>> 
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> It would be like trying to deny that Clojure, Scheme, and Racket are
>>>>> not
>>>>> LISP. Only an imbecile would claim they're not.
>>>> 
>>>> I am pretty sure the mailing lists of Clojure, Scheme or Racket don't
>>>> want
>>>> you to go there to discuss Common Lisp or Emacs' Lisp or to talk about
>>>> general lisp revivals.
>>>> 
>>>> Especially, they would not want you tell them what they should or can't
>>>> do
>>>> based on their history.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
> 
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