[Pharo-project] Misc. newbie questions

Nicolas Cellier nicolas.cellier.aka.nice at gmail.com
Sat Jan 7 10:11:08 EST 2012


2012/1/7 Frank Shearar <frank.shearar at gmail.com>:
> On 7 January 2012 14:14, Nicolas Cellier
> <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2012/1/6 Lukas Renggli <renggli at gmail.com>:
>>> On 6 January 2012 11:20, Peter Hugosson-Miller <oldmanlink at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 6 jan 2012, at 06:41, "Gerry Weaver" <gerryw at compvia.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 2. There appear to be some tool choices in the Pharo image. I would like to
>>>> be able to create a class and it's methods in an editor in one go. I like
>>>> being able to see all of the class code at once. Is there a way to do this?
>>>>  I just want to be able to type it all in and accept (evaluate?) all at
>>>> once.
>>>>
>>>> This is an interesting question to me personally. After 15 years of working
>>>> exclusively in Smalltalk I've recently been forced to start programming in
>>>> Java, where the source code is always (as far as I know) arranged in the way
>>>> you describe.
>>>>
>>>> This organization just emphasizes the dead and compiled nature of Java (and
>>>> similar languages), compared to the living objects of Smalltalk, where even
>>>> methods are objects, created by sending messages to other objects. Source
>>>> code is relegated to being a mere artifact, which can be saved and organized
>>>> in any way one wishes, and preferably never shows its ugly face to the coder
>>>> :-p
>>>
>>> Which of course is no argument why Smalltalk code could not be
>>> displayed in a more programmer friendly way as a continuous block of
>>> text. There is no technical reason why source ranges in text box
>>> couldn't correspond to life method objects. Compared to other
>>> languages it is extremely tedious in Smalltalk to get an overview over
>>> a project, a package, or even a single class or to navigate between
>>> entities.
>>>
>>>> And yes, I really *really* miss a good, object oriented class browser!
>>>
>>> Eclipse is pretty good, especially with the Java Browsing Perspective.
>>>
>>> Lukas
>>>
>>
>> As soon as you would display the code for many methods in a single text pane,
>> you will find file-based-educated people making large refactorings in
>> a single pass...
>> Imagine this leads to many syntax errors, they will soon be willing to
>> save their changes for a later rework...
>> This would be a complete change in programming flow and if we really
>> want to support this, we would have to:
>> - add a way to save syntactically incorrect code
>> - let IDE tools work on partially correct code (syntax highlighting,
>> navigation, etc...)
>>
>> IMHO, these features add a lot of complexity... Is it really worth?
>> I like the discipline of focusing on a single method until it is at
>> least syntactically correct.
>
> The Pharo community has extremely limited resources so it seems quite
> fair to me for Pharo to say "yes, but it's up to you because we have
> no time". It _is_ very useful to be able to see and edit long reams of
> text: my favourite text editor's been beaten on since the late 70s. It
> is now very, very good at manipulating text, in multiple programming
> languages, in multiple human languages, on many platforms. That I
> can't use this text editor to manipulate a textual representation of
> my favourite language is extremely annoying!
>
> frank

Yeah, but my take was that re-inventing a very narrow subset of these
40 years old text editors in Smalltalk would likely be a failure...
(or a big project)
There is also this recent related post which touch this subject:

http://railsrx.com/2011/12/29/getting-back-to-smalltalk/

Nicolas

>
>> On the other hand, in Smalltalk we have to transfer the complexity of
>> multi-method changes in the refactoring engines/menus when some simple
>> modify/replace in a file would work.
>>
>> Nicolas
>>
>>> --
>>> Lukas Renggli
>>> www.lukas-renggli.ch
>>>
>>
>




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