Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte
Peter wrote:
Thanks. I have Magritte-Morph in my image, but I wonder if anyone has debugged it. I send asMagritteMorph to a Magritte description and I get a MAContainerMorph, which is OK. Try sending openInWorld to this, and it falls over in MADescriptionMorph>>buildMorph, which calls MADescriptionMorph>>rectangleMorph, which tries to create an instance of the non-existent class RectangleMorph.
Hmm, that looks like you have an old version of Magritte-Morph loaded. If you open the Monticello browser, you can select the Magritte-Morph package and then open its repository to see if there is a newer version. If you select a newer version and click Changes, you can see if this newer version is likely to solve your problem (it is). If you take a look at the ConfigurationOfMagritte3, you can see what goes wrong. version32 is the first one referring to a Magritte-Morph newer than version 70. stable: installs version311 however. So ConfigurationOfMagritte3 needs a new stable version. (Done)
I have tried to trace this back, and it is true that my original Pharo 3.0 image, downloaded on 30 Apr 2014, does not have the class RectangleMorph. I have looked at older images, and the class exists. Maybe my mistake was to try to use the Pharo 3.0 image the day it was announced. Perhaps I would be better off using one of the pre-packed images you mention.
Pharo 3 has lots of improvements and clean-ups. RectangleMorph behavior was folded back into BorderedMorph. The projects running on top of Pharo have different ideas of what should be stable and what development versions. The people developing them mostly use development releases or specific versions. If there are not a lot of non-developing users the stable version tends to lag behind. And if the specific problem is not in the tests, CI will not break. Just before the release, there are lots of fixes and the image changes fast. Not all projects will be able to synchronize fast, and have sufficient trust to declare a new version stable. So just after a release, you might have to use a lot of development versions, check repositories and ask questions on the mailing lists. Please do, that is the only way we can improve.
My only worry is that there is a list of dozens of contributions on https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/, and unless you have far more knowledge than I have it is impossible to know which might be helpful. For now I will follow your hint and use the Forum image.
That's a helpful comment. Thank you. We should improve the project descriptions (at least I should for mine). Stephan
Stephan Thanks for the comment. I understand the point about development and things not always being in step. But if you look at it from my point of view, I am an elderly retired statistician who does programming for fun, I am not an expert in development and I am pretty new to Pharo. It all looks a maze of new terminology to me - I don't understand the difference between Monticello and Metacello, for instance. I am sure to an expert your explanation of how to check the correct version of Magritte3 is quite straightforward, but I would never have found my way to that conclusion myself. As I pointed out to Esteban, I used the configuration browser on 5 May to get the stable version of Magritte3. If that was already out of date, I am pretty well lost. Still, I am making progress with my original aim of learning about Magritte, and there are many helpful people on this group, so you can just regard this as me blowing off steam after things had not gone completely easily. Peter Kenny -----Original Message----- From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of Stephan Eggermont Sent: 14 May 2014 12:58 To: pharo-users@lists.pharo.org Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte Peter wrote:
Thanks. I have Magritte-Morph in my image, but I wonder if anyone has debugged it. I send asMagritteMorph to a Magritte description and I get a MAContainerMorph, which is OK. Try sending openInWorld to this, and it falls over in MADescriptionMorph>>buildMorph, which calls MADescriptionMorph>>rectangleMorph, which tries to create an instance of the non-existent class RectangleMorph.
Hmm, that looks like you have an old version of Magritte-Morph loaded. If you open the Monticello browser, you can select the Magritte-Morph package and then open its repository to see if there is a newer version. If you select a newer version and click Changes, you can see if this newer version is likely to solve your problem (it is). If you take a look at the ConfigurationOfMagritte3, you can see what goes wrong. version32 is the first one referring to a Magritte-Morph newer than version 70. stable: installs version311 however. So ConfigurationOfMagritte3 needs a new stable version. (Done)
I have tried to trace this back, and it is true that my original Pharo 3.0 image, downloaded on 30 Apr 2014, does not have the class RectangleMorph. I
have looked at older images, and the class exists. Maybe my mistake was to try to use the Pharo 3.0 image the day it was announced. Perhaps I would be
better off using one of the pre-packed images you mention.
Pharo 3 has lots of improvements and clean-ups. RectangleMorph behavior was folded back into BorderedMorph. The projects running on top of Pharo have different ideas of what should be stable and what development versions. The people developing them mostly use development releases or specific versions. If there are not a lot of non-developing users the stable version tends to lag behind. And if the specific problem is not in the tests, CI will not break. Just before the release, there are lots of fixes and the image changes fast. Not all projects will be able to synchronize fast, and have sufficient trust to declare a new version stable. So just after a release, you might have to use a lot of development versions, check repositories and ask questions on the mailing lists. Please do, that is the only way we can improve.
My only worry is that there is a list of dozens of contributions on https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/, and unless you have far more knowledge than I have it is impossible to know which might be helpful. For now I will follow your hint and use the Forum image.
That's a helpful comment. Thank you. We should improve the project descriptions (at least I should for mine). Stephan
2014-05-14 9:25 GMT-03:00 PBK Research <peter@pbkresearch.co.uk>:
Stephan
Still, I am making progress with my original aim of learning about Magritte, and there are many helpful people on this group, so you can just regard this as me blowing off steam after things had not gone completely easily.
Plus, you mention you're coming from Dolphin Smalltalk. Which is easier than the average, in terms of straightforwardness. Pharo has A LOT to offer, once you get used to aim at a moving target :) Esteban A. Maringolo
I, for one, need to learn the Unicode UTF-128 "steam release" emoticon ... it must be in some supplement codepage. It should look like the icon on my "Do you REALLY want to post this ?" mail client DialogLastChance window ... ;-) ( and this maillist is just a nice bunch of Smalltalkers, too ! ) #LastChance2Dialog On 14 May 2014 09:30, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo@gmail.com> wrote:
2014-05-14 9:25 GMT-03:00 PBK Research <peter@pbkresearch.co.uk>:
Stephan
Still, I am making progress with my original aim of learning about Magritte, and there are many helpful people on this group, so you can just regard this as me blowing off steam after things had not gone completely easily.
Plus, you mention you're coming from Dolphin Smalltalk. Which is easier than the average, in terms of straightforwardness.
Pharo has A LOT to offer, once you get used to aim at a moving target :)
Esteban A. Maringolo
2014-05-14 10:38 GMT-03:00 Robert Shiplett <grshiplett@gmail.com>:
I, for one, need to learn the Unicode UTF-128 "steam release" emoticon ... it must be in some supplement codepage.
It should look like the icon on my "Do you REALLY want to post this ?" mail client DialogLastChance window ...
;-)
( and this maillist is just a nice bunch of Smalltalkers, too ! )
#LastChance2Dialog
Sorry, but I didn't get the meaning of this. #lostInTranslation But to clarify my intention, I was encouraging Peter to keep betting on Pharo, given the visible frustration he had when told that something downloaded a week ago is outdated. Regards, Esteban.
Esteban Well, I am carrying on, but I do wonder why Pharo has to be such a rapidly moving target. There are virtues in stability, and perhaps there should be a filtering process before any change is made, to ensure that the benefits outweigh any disruption. I must admit that, at times, Pharo looks like a playground for a fairly small group of very clever people who are in love with the process of development. I got involved with Pharo again recently - having looked at it briefly several years ago - because I had read papers, mainly by Lukas Renggli, about Magritte and PetitParser, and I thought these were brilliant ideas that I wanted to explore. But am sure that, if I could get the functions of Magritte and PetitParser in a stable environment like Dolphin, I would drop Pharo like a shot. While I am in a moaning mood - I'm not always like this! - could anyone tell me whether there is a glossary of names for Pharo extensions which will tell beginners like me what they are for and whether they are worth learning about. I have come across Cairo, Athens, Zinc, Fuel, Spec, Grease and Shout - just as names, with no idea what they do and no obvious way of finding out. Is there any place where I can look these things up? They all exist in the Forum image that I downloaded today, but the system browser contains no general explanation. Peter Kenny PS I've just seen Stephan's reply while composing this. Thanks - it all gets a bit clearer. You might take my last paragraph above as my response to your last paragraph! -----Original Message----- From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of Esteban A. Maringolo Sent: 14 May 2014 13:30 To: Any question about pharo is welcome Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte 2014-05-14 9:25 GMT-03:00 PBK Research <peter@pbkresearch.co.uk>:
Stephan
Still, I am making progress with my original aim of learning about Magritte, and there are many helpful people on this group, so you can just regard this as me blowing off steam after things had not gone completely easily.
Plus, you mention you're coming from Dolphin Smalltalk. Which is easier than the average, in terms of straightforwardness. Pharo has A LOT to offer, once you get used to aim at a moving target :) Esteban A. Maringolo
2014-05-14 12:15 GMT-03:00 PBK Research <peter@pbkresearch.co.uk>:
Esteban
Well, I am carrying on, but I do wonder why Pharo has to be such a rapidly moving target. There are virtues in stability, and perhaps there should be a filtering process before any change is made, to ensure that the benefits outweigh any disruption.
Well... that might be related with the fact that Pharo "the kernel" is moving faster than many popular Pharo/Squeak libraries.
I must admit that, at times, Pharo looks like a playground for a fairly small group of very clever people who are in love with the process of development.
I share your feelings about this. It is a playground AND a business platform, supported by very clever people who are in love with it. :)
But am sure that, if I could get the functions of Magritte and PetitParser in a stable environment like Dolphin, I would drop Pharo like a shot.
Dolphin was (is?) a Smalltalk dialect built by only two clever developers during a long period of time, that built the entire codebase with a high level of coherence not found in other dialects, or software in general. Also, Andy Bower in particular was very skilled about designing user interactions. I always wonder how many people that uses Pharo ever used Dolphin. On the other hand, Pharo carries a lot of legacy code, some part was replaced and the remaining heritage is being replaced as much as possible by new code which is more consistent and coherent with the rest of the codebase. And not only it is rewritten for better understanding, but also to add new features.
While I am in a moaning mood - I'm not always like this! - could anyone tell me whether there is a glossary of names for Pharo extensions which will tell beginners like me what they are for and whether they are worth learning about. I have come across Cairo, Athens, Zinc, Fuel, Spec, Grease and Shout - just as names, with no idea what they do and no obvious way of finding out. Is there any place where I can look these things up? They all exist in the Forum image that I downloaded today, but the system browser contains no general explanation.
This is another thing that, IMO, has to do more with the latest naming trends in general (not only Pharo): You can't infer what is what only by its name. In the past it was all about acronyms, now that practice is almost abandoned, which is a good thing :) Regards, -- Esteban.
On 14/5/14 17:15, PBK Research wrote:
Esteban
Well, I am carrying on, but I do wonder why Pharo has to be such a rapidly moving target. There are virtues in stability, and perhaps there should be a filtering process before any change is made, to ensure that the benefits outweigh any disruption. There is one. Now immobility is also death. I must admit that, at times, Pharo looks like a playground for a fairly small group of very clever people who are in love with the process of development.
Pharo is not moving fast. The RectangleMorph has been removed months ago. Now if people do not maintain packages or maintain only what they use: this is not the fault of Pharo. Pharo is not a playground. We have companies deploying real software using Pharo. Now for some companies this is important to have - up to date technologies like vector graphics - clean (you know not always getting dirt in your way when you code) - easy to use version of Pharo and they value that we are moving. We do not move for the sake of it and we would prefer to have a clean and well designed system like dolphin was (which could never run on my machine) but people preferred "better dead than open-source" and they are dead sadly.
I got involved with Pharo again recently - having looked at it briefly several years ago - because I had read papers, mainly by Lukas Renggli, about Magritte and PetitParser, and I thought these were brilliant ideas that I wanted to explore. But am sure that, if I could get the functions of Magritte and PetitParser in a stable environment like Dolphin, I would drop Pharo like a shot.
Peter don't you feel that you are insulting us? if it makes you feel better good for you. You can use a Smalltalk running only on windows, that is dead (and of course it was really nice) but the people were against open-source and we believe that we prefer to have an open-source system that everybody can have a look than a close source working on a single OS developed by 1.5 developer. Because there were only two smart guys behind objectarts. Next time you insult Pharo and us I will just plonk your email (if you do not know what plonk means ask google).
While I am in a moaning mood - I'm not always like this! - could anyone tell me whether there is a glossary of names for Pharo extensions which will tell beginners like me what they are for and whether they are worth learning about. I have come across Cairo, Athens, Zinc, Fuel, Spec, Grease and Shout - just as names, with no idea what they do and no obvious way of finding out.
I have the answers but frankly you did not give me the will to tell that to you especially when I spent my FREE time and energy to write software and documentation for other people. Now you should learn how to ask questions in an open-source community. Now by insulting people: Cairo (ask google because this is mainstream), Athens (is a API for vector graphics with different back -end like cairo -hints hints), Zinc (HTTP server), Fuel (serializer), Spec (UIbuilder), Grease (Compatibility package) and Shout (Syntax Higlighter as you type).
Is there any place where I can look these things up? They all exist in the Forum image that I downloaded today, but the system browser contains no general explanation. If you load the code using a configuration then placing the mouse on the configuration package will if the project got documented show you the description.
Now you can find information on - the draft pharo catalog https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoProjectCatalog/ - the draft of the new book https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoForTheEnterprise/ - http://www.deepintopharo.org Stef
Peter Kenny
PS I've just seen Stephan's reply while composing this. Thanks - it all gets a bit clearer. You might take my last paragraph above as my response to your last paragraph!
-----Original Message----- From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of Esteban A. Maringolo Sent: 14 May 2014 13:30 To: Any question about pharo is welcome Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte
2014-05-14 9:25 GMT-03:00 PBK Research <peter@pbkresearch.co.uk>:
Stephan Still, I am making progress with my original aim of learning about Magritte, and there are many helpful people on this group, so you can just regard this as me blowing off steam after things had not gone completely easily. Plus, you mention you're coming from Dolphin Smalltalk. Which is easier than the average, in terms of straightforwardness.
Pharo has A LOT to offer, once you get used to aim at a moving target :)
Esteban A. Maringolo
stepharo I was not setting out to insult anybody, and if you feel insulted by my comments then I apologise. I have had a frustrating couple of days, and I was trying to explain the source of my frustration. In some respects my problems are connected with the rate at which Pharo is changing; I was a bit niggled by Esteban Maringolo's comment about having to aim at a moving target, which I realise was meant light-heartedly, and I sounded off. One sort of frustration is exemplified by your comment that RectangleMorph was removed months ago, yet the version of Magritte3 that I got from the configuration browser last week had a method MADescriptionMorph>>rectangleMorph that called RectangleMorph. That has now been changed to BorderedMorph and it works OK, but it wasted a bit of my time finding out why. This may be the fault of the Magritte developers rather than the Pharo developers, but from the user's viewpoint this distinction is not obvious. I have made progress since I sent my messages earlier today; I can now see how to use Magritte (at an elementary level) to produce editors via Seaside in a web browser or as Pharo windows, which was one of my first objectives. I shall persevere with Pharo, and I shall try to read all the documentation thoroughly before asking questions here. Peter Kenny -----Original Message----- From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of stepharo Sent: 14 May 2014 21:22 To: Any question about pharo is welcome Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte On 14/5/14 17:15, PBK Research wrote:
Esteban
Well, I am carrying on, but I do wonder why Pharo has to be such a rapidly moving target. There are virtues in stability, and perhaps there should be a filtering process before any change is made, to ensure that the benefits outweigh any disruption. There is one. Now immobility is also death. I must admit that, at times, Pharo looks like a playground for a fairly small group of very clever people who are in love with the process of development.
Pharo is not moving fast. The RectangleMorph has been removed months ago. Now if people do not maintain packages or maintain only what they use: this is not the fault of Pharo. Pharo is not a playground. We have companies deploying real software using Pharo. Now for some companies this is important to have - up to date technologies like vector graphics - clean (you know not always getting dirt in your way when you code) - easy to use version of Pharo and they value that we are moving. We do not move for the sake of it and we would prefer to have a clean and well designed system like dolphin was (which could never run on my machine) but people preferred "better dead than open-source" and they are dead sadly.
I got involved with Pharo again recently - having looked at it briefly several years ago - because I had read papers, mainly by Lukas Renggli, about Magritte and PetitParser, and I thought these were brilliant ideas that I wanted to explore. But am sure that, if I could get the functions
of
Magritte and PetitParser in a stable environment like Dolphin, I would drop Pharo like a shot. Peter don't you feel that you are insulting us? if it makes you feel better good for you. You can use a Smalltalk running only on windows, that is dead (and of course it was really nice) but the people were against open-source and we believe that we prefer to have an open-source system that everybody can have a look than a close source working on a single OS developed by 1.5 developer. Because there were only two smart guys behind objectarts.
Next time you insult Pharo and us I will just plonk your email (if you do not know what plonk means ask google).
While I am in a moaning mood - I'm not always like this! - could anyone
tell
me whether there is a glossary of names for Pharo extensions which will tell beginners like me what they are for and whether they are worth learning about. I have come across Cairo, Athens, Zinc, Fuel, Spec, Grease and Shout - just as names, with no idea what they do and no obvious way of finding out.
I have the answers but frankly you did not give me the will to tell that to you especially when I spent my FREE time and energy to write software and documentation for other people. Now you should learn how to ask questions in an open-source community. Now by insulting people: Cairo (ask google because this is mainstream), Athens (is a API for vector graphics with different back -end like cairo -hints hints), Zinc (HTTP server), Fuel (serializer), Spec (UIbuilder), Grease (Compatibility package) and Shout (Syntax Higlighter as you type).
Is there any place where I can look these things up? They all exist in the Forum image that I downloaded today, but the system browser contains no general explanation. If you load the code using a configuration then placing the mouse on the configuration package will if the project got documented show you the description.
Now you can find information on - the draft pharo catalog https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoProjectCatalog/ - the draft of the new book https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoForTheEnterprise/ - http://www.deepintopharo.org Stef
Peter Kenny
PS I've just seen Stephan's reply while composing this. Thanks - it all
gets
a bit clearer. You might take my last paragraph above as my response to your last paragraph!
-----Original Message----- From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of Esteban A. Maringolo Sent: 14 May 2014 13:30 To: Any question about pharo is welcome Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte
2014-05-14 9:25 GMT-03:00 PBK Research <peter@pbkresearch.co.uk>:
Stephan Still, I am making progress with my original aim of learning about Magritte, and there are many helpful people on this group, so you can just regard this as me blowing off steam after things had not gone completely easily. Plus, you mention you're coming from Dolphin Smalltalk. Which is easier than the average, in terms of straightforwardness.
Pharo has A LOT to offer, once you get used to aim at a moving target :)
Esteban A. Maringolo
Do not worry. We are here to (try) help you. And we will do it if it is in our capabilities... Yes, some times it is not enough, I understand, but then you have to be a bit patient, but we will get into the point to help :) As I told you some mails before, even the magritte-morph package was updated. What was not is the configuration. In fact, there is a configuration that works: version 3.2⦠is just that it was not promoted as stable. Now, why it was not promoted⦠is a problem of maintainers of the package, not pharo itself, ven if magritte is an important part of us, we cannot take responsibility of every single package that is published. And it is not a problem of just us, you will see that in many other platforms. We have a lot of people contributing (and I thank the good will spirits for that, and we would really like to count you in as a part of them), but one of the problems of being open is that you cannot control everything. Is a price to pay. The advantages are that you became a lot bigger that you would be by yourself (or closed). Now⦠communication is not out strongest part. Documentation either. We have to improve it, but it is not hard and it will take some time⦠in the mean time all what I can offer you is this great community. We are not perfect, we have a lot of failing stuff and things to improve. But we are always trying to help. Please keep pushing and we will respond. Other thing, to the maintainers of Magritte: Why is 3.2 not promoted? it is there since a couple of months now⦠cheers, Esteban On 14 May 2014, at 23:32, PBK Research <peter@pbkresearch.co.uk> wrote:
stepharo
I was not setting out to insult anybody, and if you feel insulted by my comments then I apologise. I have had a frustrating couple of days, and I was trying to explain the source of my frustration. In some respects my problems are connected with the rate at which Pharo is changing; I was a bit niggled by Esteban Maringolo's comment about having to aim at a moving target, which I realise was meant light-heartedly, and I sounded off.
One sort of frustration is exemplified by your comment that RectangleMorph was removed months ago, yet the version of Magritte3 that I got from the configuration browser last week had a method MADescriptionMorph>>rectangleMorph that called RectangleMorph. That has now been changed to BorderedMorph and it works OK, but it wasted a bit of my time finding out why. This may be the fault of the Magritte developers rather than the Pharo developers, but from the user's viewpoint this distinction is not obvious.
I have made progress since I sent my messages earlier today; I can now see how to use Magritte (at an elementary level) to produce editors via Seaside in a web browser or as Pharo windows, which was one of my first objectives. I shall persevere with Pharo, and I shall try to read all the documentation thoroughly before asking questions here.
Peter Kenny
-----Original Message----- From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of stepharo Sent: 14 May 2014 21:22 To: Any question about pharo is welcome Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte
On 14/5/14 17:15, PBK Research wrote:
Esteban
Well, I am carrying on, but I do wonder why Pharo has to be such a rapidly moving target. There are virtues in stability, and perhaps there should be a filtering process before any change is made, to ensure that the benefits outweigh any disruption. There is one. Now immobility is also death. I must admit that, at times, Pharo looks like a playground for a fairly small group of very clever people who are in love with the process of development.
Pharo is not moving fast. The RectangleMorph has been removed months ago. Now if people do not maintain packages or maintain only what they use: this is not the fault of Pharo.
Pharo is not a playground. We have companies deploying real software using Pharo. Now for some companies this is important to have - up to date technologies like vector graphics - clean (you know not always getting dirt in your way when you code) - easy to use version of Pharo and they value that we are moving. We do not move for the sake of it and we would prefer to have a clean and well designed system like dolphin was (which could never run on my machine) but people preferred "better dead than open-source" and they are dead sadly.
I got involved with Pharo again recently - having looked at it briefly several years ago - because I had read papers, mainly by Lukas Renggli, about Magritte and PetitParser, and I thought these were brilliant ideas that I wanted to explore. But am sure that, if I could get the functions
of
Magritte and PetitParser in a stable environment like Dolphin, I would drop Pharo like a shot. Peter don't you feel that you are insulting us? if it makes you feel better good for you. You can use a Smalltalk running only on windows, that is dead (and of course it was really nice) but the people were against open-source and we believe that we prefer to have an open-source system that everybody can have a look than a close source working on a single OS developed by 1.5 developer. Because there were only two smart guys behind objectarts.
Next time you insult Pharo and us I will just plonk your email (if you do not know what plonk means ask google).
While I am in a moaning mood - I'm not always like this! - could anyone
tell
me whether there is a glossary of names for Pharo extensions which will tell beginners like me what they are for and whether they are worth learning about. I have come across Cairo, Athens, Zinc, Fuel, Spec, Grease and Shout - just as names, with no idea what they do and no obvious way of finding out.
I have the answers but frankly you did not give me the will to tell that to you especially when I spent my FREE time and energy to write software and documentation for other people. Now you should learn how to ask questions in an open-source community. Now by insulting people:
Cairo (ask google because this is mainstream), Athens (is a API for vector graphics with different back -end like cairo -hints hints), Zinc (HTTP server), Fuel (serializer), Spec (UIbuilder), Grease (Compatibility package) and Shout (Syntax Higlighter as you type).
Is there any place where I can look these things up? They all exist in the Forum image that I downloaded today, but the system browser contains no general explanation. If you load the code using a configuration then placing the mouse on the configuration package will if the project got documented show you the description.
Now you can find information on - the draft pharo catalog https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoProjectCatalog/ - the draft of the new book https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoForTheEnterprise/ - http://www.deepintopharo.org
Stef
Peter Kenny
PS I've just seen Stephan's reply while composing this. Thanks - it all
gets
a bit clearer. You might take my last paragraph above as my response to your last paragraph!
-----Original Message----- From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of Esteban A. Maringolo Sent: 14 May 2014 13:30 To: Any question about pharo is welcome Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte
2014-05-14 9:25 GMT-03:00 PBK Research <peter@pbkresearch.co.uk>:
Stephan Still, I am making progress with my original aim of learning about Magritte, and there are many helpful people on this group, so you can just regard this as me blowing off steam after things had not gone completely easily. Plus, you mention you're coming from Dolphin Smalltalk. Which is easier than the average, in terms of straightforwardness.
Pharo has A LOT to offer, once you get used to aim at a moving target :)
Esteban A. Maringolo
On 14/5/14 14:25, PBK Research wrote:
Stephan
Thanks for the comment. I understand the point about development and things not always being in step. But if you look at it from my point of view, I am an elderly retired statistician who does programming for fun,
you interest me :) I would love to get a nice statistic library for Pharo and to improve the SciTalk math library.
I am not an expert in development and I am pretty new to Pharo. It all looks a maze of new terminology to me - I don't understand the difference between Monticello and Metacello, for instance. I am sure to an expert your explanation of how to check the correct version of Magritte3 is quite straightforward, but I would never have found my way to that conclusion myself. As I pointed out to Esteban, I used the configuration browser on 5 May to get the stable version of Magritte3. If that was already out of date, I am pretty well lost.
Still, I am making progress with my original aim of learning about Magritte, and there are many helpful people on this group, so you can just regard this as me blowing off steam after things had not gone completely easily.
Peter Kenny
-----Original Message----- From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of Stephan Eggermont Sent: 14 May 2014 12:58 To: pharo-users@lists.pharo.org Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte
Peter wrote:
Thanks. I have Magritte-Morph in my image, but I wonder if anyone has debugged it. I send asMagritteMorph to a Magritte description and I get a MAContainerMorph, which is OK. Try sending openInWorld to this, and it falls over in MADescriptionMorph>>buildMorph, which calls MADescriptionMorph>>rectangleMorph, which tries to create an instance of the non-existent class RectangleMorph. Hmm, that looks like you have an old version of Magritte-Morph loaded. If you open the Monticello browser, you can select the Magritte-Morph package and then open its repository to see if there is a newer version. If you select a newer version and click Changes, you can see if this newer version is likely to solve your problem (it is).
If you take a look at the ConfigurationOfMagritte3, you can see what goes wrong. version32 is the first one referring to a Magritte-Morph newer than version 70. stable: installs version311 however. So ConfigurationOfMagritte3 needs a new stable version. (Done)
I have tried to trace this back, and it is true that my original Pharo 3.0 image, downloaded on 30 Apr 2014, does not have the class RectangleMorph. I have looked at older images, and the class exists. Maybe my mistake was to try to use the Pharo 3.0 image the day it was announced. Perhaps I would be better off using one of the pre-packed images you mention. Pharo 3 has lots of improvements and clean-ups. RectangleMorph behavior was folded back into BorderedMorph. The projects running on top of Pharo have different ideas of what should be stable and what development versions. The people developing them mostly use development releases or specific versions. If there are not a lot of non-developing users the stable version tends to lag behind. And if the specific problem is not in the tests, CI will not break.
Just before the release, there are lots of fixes and the image changes fast. Not all projects will be able to synchronize fast, and have sufficient trust to declare a new version stable. So just after a release, you might have to use a lot of development versions, check repositories and ask questions on the mailing lists. Please do, that is the only way we can improve.
My only worry is that there is a list of dozens of contributions on https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/, and unless you have far more knowledge than I have it is impossible to know which might be helpful. For now I will follow your hint and use the Forum image. That's a helpful comment. Thank you. We should improve the project descriptions (at least I should for mine).
Stephan
On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 10:05 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
On 14/5/14 14:25, PBK Research wrote:
Stephan
Thanks for the comment. I understand the point about development and things not always being in step. But if you look at it from my point of view, I am an elderly retired statistician who does programming for fun,
you interest me :) I would love to get a nice statistic library for Pharo and to improve the SciTalk math library.
Check DHB.
I am not an
expert in development and I am pretty new to Pharo. It all looks a maze of new terminology to me - I don't understand the difference between Monticello and Metacello, for instance. I am sure to an expert your explanation of how to check the correct version of Magritte3 is quite straightforward, but I would never have found my way to that conclusion myself. As I pointed out to Esteban, I used the configuration browser on 5 May to get the stable version of Magritte3. If that was already out of date, I am pretty well lost.
Still, I am making progress with my original aim of learning about Magritte, and there are many helpful people on this group, so you can just regard this as me blowing off steam after things had not gone completely easily.
Peter Kenny
-----Original Message----- From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of Stephan Eggermont Sent: 14 May 2014 12:58 To: pharo-users@lists.pharo.org Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte
Peter wrote:
Thanks. I have Magritte-Morph in my image, but I wonder if anyone has debugged it. I send asMagritteMorph to a Magritte description and I get a MAContainerMorph, which is OK. Try sending openInWorld to this, and it
falls
over in MADescriptionMorph>>buildMorph, which calls MADescriptionMorph>>rectangleMorph, which tries to create an instance of
the
non-existent class RectangleMorph.
Hmm, that looks like you have an old version of Magritte-Morph loaded. If you open the Monticello browser, you can select the Magritte-Morph package and then open its repository to see if there is a newer version. If you select a newer version and click Changes, you can see if this newer version is likely to solve your problem (it is).
If you take a look at the ConfigurationOfMagritte3, you can see what goes wrong. version32 is the first one referring to a Magritte-Morph newer than version 70. stable: installs version311 however. So ConfigurationOfMagritte3 needs a new stable version. (Done)
I have tried to trace this back, and it is true that my original Pharo
3.0 image, downloaded on 30 Apr 2014, does not have the class RectangleMorph. I have looked at older images, and the class exists. Maybe my mistake was to try to use the Pharo 3.0 image the day it was announced. Perhaps I would be better off using one of the pre-packed images you mention.
Pharo 3 has lots of improvements and clean-ups. RectangleMorph behavior was folded back into BorderedMorph. The projects running on top of Pharo have different ideas of what should be stable and what development versions. The people developing them mostly use development releases or specific versions. If there are not a lot of non-developing users the stable version tends to lag behind. And if the specific problem is not in the tests, CI will not break.
Just before the release, there are lots of fixes and the image changes fast. Not all projects will be able to synchronize fast, and have sufficient trust to declare a new version stable. So just after a release, you might have to use a lot of development versions, check repositories and ask questions on the mailing lists. Please do, that is the only way we can improve.
My only worry is that there is a list of dozens of contributions on
https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/, and unless you have far more knowledge than I have it is impossible to know which might be helpful. For now I will follow your hint and use the Forum image.
That's a helpful comment. Thank you. We should improve the project descriptions (at least I should for mine).
Stephan
participants (7)
-
Esteban A. Maringolo -
Esteban Lorenzano -
PBK Research -
phil＠highoctane.be -
Robert Shiplett -
Stephan Eggermont -
stepharo