Hi, On 09/23/11 15:32, Marcus Denker wrote:

On Sep 23, 2011, at 10:11 PM, Miguel Moquillon wrote:

...

Just a link to an interesting post: http://futuremint.com/smalltalk-and-seaside-versus-ruby-and-rails-i

Enjoy reading ;-)

The only problem is that the post is already old and he is now back using Ruby...

http://futuremint.com/once-again-enjoying-ruby

(and even that post is old)

Marcus

Well it seems that Dave has and enjoyable experience in this vs thing most of the time [1][2] until he hits metaprogramming, as he says: "I'm pretty tired of everything being a "pattern" in Smalltalk. Metaprogramming can be done with Smalltalk but its more tedious than Ruby because there is no good way to explicitly show the logic you're using, and you need a class for everything. But that'll be in another post soon" and: "You can dynamically create classes & methods in Smalltalk, but most metaprogramming I've seen and made isn't so much programming as just complicated class lookup & method dispatching. Typically one would outline some logic in the doesNotUnderstand: method that does method dispatch to other methods, however those method names are up to you to name. So your method names end up being programming by convention if you want the names to clue you in on anything. You also have method protocols, but I've found those are typically out of sync with the latest updates in my code and other libraries I've used" [1] http://futuremint.com/caching-in-seaside-vs-rails [2] http://futuremint.com/refactoring-smalltalk-is-easier-than-refactor As a newbie that's way too advanced for me, but, because we need to manage several projects with Redmine[3] I ended reading a little of Ruby[4] and I really enjoyed the similarities and differences with Smalltalk. So this thread comes in a good timing for me. [3] http://www.redmine.org/ [4] http://mislav.uniqpath.com/poignant-guide/book/ My personal learning experience with Smalltalk went from teaching introductory programming with Etoys, Bots Inc, to Pharo to Seaside. In this travel, I found another apps and ways, but most of the time I return to Smalltalk even if I'm still a newbie after several years of being around. And as a newbie, when I found post like David's I ask myself "what keeps me in Smalltalk? why, when I think in learning programming, I think in learning it in Smalltalk, after all this years, instead of more popular ones?" and for me, the answer is the community and the kind of cohesive, coherent and self contained experience of programming in Smalltalk vs programming in anything else. Still I would like to see the flexibility of python's syntax in the ways of expressing a program vs "everything is an object and you can't cheat" --in python you can and in fact that keep me away of the Smalltalk language a lot of time. Meanwhile, trying to spread the word about Smalltalk here (in Bogotá, Colombia) is about building things with it that can be not be build so easily/coherently with other things. I'm thinking in building a "pocket web experience", something that you can keep in a USB drive in your pocket, connect to any computer on Mac/Linux/Windows everywhere and let you post your content, keep it with you, synchronize with your on-line hosting (may be on seasidehosting.st or smallharbour.org) and share and talk about it using social networks (but without depend on them). People here like this idea, but they ask me if is possible to make something like things you do with XDV/Deliverance[5][6][7] and, as a newbie, I have no clue... by the way, is possible? [5] http://www.slideshare.net/spliter/from-design-to-plone-site-xdvdriven-plone-... [6] http://www.slideshare.net/Jazkarta/easier-and-faster-plone-theming-with-deli... [7] http://laplone.org/presentations/deliverance-vs-xdv-wpd2010.pdf Anyway I just want to share some thoughts and questions about what this thread brings to my mind, but this post is getting too long, so thanks for listening and for the teaching. Cheers, Offray