working with athens balloon
Hi, I would like to get Athens for Balloon loaded by default in a Moose image. The idea would be to make it easy for people to migrate to this interface, to make the code ready for Cairo. In the process of testing it, I noticed that the text examples do not work with StrikeFont. Please note that we are using Pharo 1.4. I tried it by doing the followings: Gofer new squeaksource: 'Athens'; package: 'ConfigurationOfAthens'; load. ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfAthens) project version: #development) load: 'Athens-Morphic'. And then: AthensTextRenderTest test1. The problem seems to be caused by a missing method: StrikeFont>>getPreciseAscent @Igor: Is this a missing method, or is it something else? Would it be difficult to fix this? Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
On Jun 7, 2012, at 9:54 AM, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
I would like to get Athens for Balloon loaded by default in a Moose image.
good
The idea would be to make it easy for people to migrate to this interface, to make the code ready for Cairo.
normally you will not have to migrate except if you want to break the layering of athens and/or if you want to use cairo hyper specific features. Again Athens provides an API and Morphs should be migrated to use this API. so as a transition period each morph should get its drawOn: method rewritten as a drawOnAthens: Then you as a Morph user you do not have to change anything.
In the process of testing it, I noticed that the text examples do not work with StrikeFont. Please note that we are using Pharo 1.4.
In general the font model has to be totally rewritten.
I tried it by doing the followings: Gofer new squeaksource: 'Athens'; package: 'ConfigurationOfAthens'; load. ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfAthens) project version: #development) load: 'Athens-Morphic'.
And then: AthensTextRenderTest test1.
The problem seems to be caused by a missing method: StrikeFont>>getPreciseAscent
@Igor: Is this a missing method, or is it something else? Would it be difficult to fix this?
Cheers, Doru
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Every thing has its own flow"
Hi, On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
On Jun 7, 2012, at 9:54 AM, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
I would like to get Athens for Balloon loaded by default in a Moose image.
good
The idea would be to make it easy for people to migrate to this interface, to make the code ready for Cairo.
normally you will not have to migrate except if you want to break the layering of athens and/or if you want to use cairo hyper specific features.
Again Athens provides an API and Morphs should be migrated to use this API. so as a transition period each morph should get its drawOn: method rewritten as a drawOnAthens:
Then you as a Morph user you do not have to change anything.
I know what Athens is :). I meant to say that the client code needs to me migrated (EyeSee, Roassal) to the new Canvas. Once this is ready we will be prepared to use Cairo which technically right now requires extra things: install Cairo, use another VM.
In the process of testing it, I noticed that the text examples do not work with StrikeFont. Please note that we are using Pharo 1.4.
In general the font model has to be totally rewritten.
Ok, but until the text will work with Balloon Athens we cannot do much because both EyeSee and Mondrian need that API. Cheers, Doru
I tried it by doing the followings: Gofer new    squeaksource: 'Athens';    package: 'ConfigurationOfAthens';    load. ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfAthens) project version: #development) load: 'Athens-Morphic'.
And then: AthensTextRenderTest test1.
The problem seems to be caused by a missing method: StrikeFont>>getPreciseAscent
@Igor: Is this a missing method, or is it something else? Would it be difficult to fix this?
Cheers, Doru
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Every thing has its own flow"
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
Hi, Tudor. Yes, i did not implemented support for Strike fonts. Because strike fonts are not scalable, and because no way they can be correctly rendered by Athens: fonts holding a pre-rendered glyph with subpixel accuracy... which working well as long as you don't rotate/scale the bitmap.. and if you do, then output is even worse than gray-scale) So it is useless, and that's why i didn't added support for them in a first place. But if you need it, i can add it. It should be easy to do. Tell me if you need it. I am currently working on bundling cairo library with VM i thought it will take less time, but ... this stuff is terrible to compose & build unless you are on linux. I should finish Mac build in a few days (actually i always think that it will be this day, but then yet another idiosyncrasy prevents me from finishing it :) -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
On Jun 7, 2012, at 2:06 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
Hi, Tudor.
Yes, i did not implemented support for Strike fonts. Because strike fonts are not scalable, and because no way they can be correctly rendered by Athens: fonts holding a pre-rendered glyph with subpixel accuracy... which working well as long as you don't rotate/scale the bitmap.. and if you do, then output is even worse than gray-scale) So it is useless, and that's why i didn't added support for them in a first place. But if you need it, i can add it. It should be easy to do. Tell me if you need it.
igor if this is simple may be this would be good so that people can get started and put more pressure on you.
I am currently working on bundling cairo library with VM i thought it will take less time, but ... this stuff is terrible to compose & build unless you are on linux. I should finish Mac build in a few days (actually i always think that it will be this day, but then yet another idiosyncrasy prevents me from finishing it :)
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Hi, On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, Tudor.
Yes, i did not implemented support for Strike fonts. Because strike fonts are not scalable, and because no way they can be correctly rendered by Athens: fonts holding a pre-rendered glyph with subpixel accuracy... which working well as long as you don't rotate/scale the bitmap.. and if you do, then output is even worse than gray-scale) So it is useless, and that's why i didn't added support for them in a first place. But if you need it, i can add it. It should be easy to do. Tell me if you need it.
I see. If it is not expensive, I think the support for StrikeFonts would still make sense for helping us transition the application from the old canvas to the Athens one without requiring a Cairo-enabled VM. Like that, once we have migrated the code to the new API, we can simply switch to the Cairo/Pango backend. Or do you have another proposal? On another note, how do I make "AthensTextRenderTest test1." work? I mean how should I initialize the default font (or how do I pass it to the AthensTextScanner)?
I am currently working on bundling cairo library with VM i thought it will take less time, but ... this stuff is terrible to compose & build unless you are on linux. I should finish Mac build in a few days (actually i always think that it will be this day, but then yet another idiosyncrasy prevents me from finishing it :)
This would be so cool. Cheers, Doru
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
On 7 June 2012 14:41, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hi,
On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, Tudor.
Yes, i did not implemented support for Strike fonts. Because strike fonts are not scalable, and because no way they can be correctly rendered by Athens: fonts holding a pre-rendered glyph with subpixel accuracy... which working well as long as you don't rotate/scale the bitmap.. and if you do, then output is even worse than gray-scale) So it is useless, and that's why i didn't added support for them in a first place. But if you need it, i can add it. It should be easy to do. Tell me if you need it.
I see. If it is not expensive, I think the support for StrikeFonts would still make sense for helping us transition the application from the old canvas to the Athens one without requiring a Cairo-enabled VM. Like that, once we have migrated the code to the new API, we can simply switch to the Cairo/Pango backend. Or do you have another proposal?
On another note, how do I make "AthensTextRenderTest test1." work? I mean how should I initialize the default font (or how do I pass it to the AthensTextScanner)?
ouch.. looks like extension methods is wiped from LogicalFont.. i will add them back.. But in overall , i want to tell you the situation: as you may see, there is no high-level API defined yet in Canvas/Surface for text rendering. And i am going to introduce it , once i'll deal with VM bundling.. because telling people to install cairo and do jumps and hops just to see it works is wasting a time. Now the idea how i want to introduce it is simple. You can use any object as font (as long at it should conform to some minimal font protocol, which has to be defined). I don't like to inherit AbstractFont protocol, because it is too pixel-wise centric. Now, to start using that font on a surface, once should tell font: renderer := font getRendererOn: surface. this should answer a subclass of GlyphRenderer, which then can be used later to render the text on given surface using given font. renderer setPosition: .. renderer renderGlyphsIn: 'abcde' from: 1 to: ('abcde' size) etc. of course there is missing some convenience protocol(s), but just to give you an idea. About pango: pango is framework for text layout, not rendering. So, it can be used along with Athens, but it will be never an integral part of Athens. In Athens, i don't want to provide a high-level and highly complex semantics for text layout, because it is a separate domain and you can spend whole life there. Athens should support only basic drawing operations, like draw character span at certain position. The rest (layout) should be handled externally. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Hi, On 7 Jun 2012, at 15:57, Igor Stasenko wrote:
ouch.. looks like extension methods is wiped from LogicalFont.. i will add them back..
Thanks.
But in overall , i want to tell you the situation: as you may see, there is no high-level API defined yet in Canvas/Surface for text rendering. And i am going to introduce it , once i'll deal with VM bundling.. because telling people to install cairo and do jumps and hops just to see it works is wasting a time.
Great.
Now the idea how i want to introduce it is simple. You can use any object as font (as long at it should conform to some minimal font protocol, which has to be defined). I don't like to inherit AbstractFont protocol, because it is too pixel-wise centric.
Sounds good.
Now, to start using that font on a surface, once should tell font:
renderer := font getRendererOn: surface.
this should answer a subclass of GlyphRenderer, which then can be used later to render the text on given surface using given font.
renderer setPosition: .. renderer renderGlyphsIn: 'abcde' from: 1 to: ('abcde' size) etc.
of course there is missing some convenience protocol(s), but just to give you an idea.
About pango: pango is framework for text layout, not rendering. So, it can be used along with Athens, but it will be never an integral part of Athens. In Athens, i don't want to provide a high-level and highly complex semantics for text layout, because it is a separate domain and you can spend whole life there. Athens should support only basic drawing operations, like draw character span at certain position.
Exactly. This is what we need for engines like EyeSee and Roassal.
The rest (layout) should be handled externally.
I know that. I should have not mentioned Pango :) Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com "Sometimes the best solution is not the best solution."
Hi Igor, On 8 Jun 2012, at 00:11, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
On 7 Jun 2012, at 15:57, Igor Stasenko wrote:
ouch.. looks like extension methods is wiped from LogicalFont.. i will add them back..
Thanks.
Please just let me know when you re-add the methods so that I can test it. Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com "It's not what we do that matters most, it's how we do it."
On 8 June 2012 07:59, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hi Igor,
On 8 Jun 2012, at 00:11, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
On 7 Jun 2012, at 15:57, Igor Stasenko wrote:
ouch.. looks like extension methods is wiped from LogicalFont.. i will add them back..
Thanks.
Please just let me know when you re-add the methods so that I can test it.
sure
Cheers, Doru
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"It's not what we do that matters most, it's how we do it."
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
ok, i fixed the issues with text rendering in balloon.. alas, i cannot upload the fixes.. squeksource is down.. On 8 June 2012 12:14, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8 June 2012 07:59, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hi Igor,
On 8 Jun 2012, at 00:11, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
On 7 Jun 2012, at 15:57, Igor Stasenko wrote:
ouch.. looks like extension methods is wiped from LogicalFont.. i will add them back..
Thanks.
Please just let me know when you re-add the methods so that I can test it.
sure
Cheers, Doru
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"It's not what we do that matters most, it's how we do it."
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
I gonna introduce a naive protocol in canvas for drawing text. Something like this: can setFont: font. can setPaint: (Color black alpha: 0.3). can drawString: 'abc'. can translateX: -1 Y: -1. can setPaint: (Color red). can drawString: 'abc'. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Sounds good. Doru p.s. Just please do not call the canvas a can :) On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 5:03 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
I gonna introduce a naive protocol in canvas for drawing text.
Something like this: can setFont: font.
can setPaint: (Color black alpha: 0.3). can drawString: 'abc'. can translateX: -1 Y: -1. can setPaint: (Color red). can drawString: 'abc'.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
On Jun 11, 2012, at 8:11 AM, Tudor Girba wrote:
Sounds good.
Doru
p.s. Just please do not call the canvas a can :)
says the guy who calls "a" a "presenter"?
On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 5:03 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
I gonna introduce a naive protocol in canvas for drawing text.
Something like this: can setFont: font.
can setPaint: (Color black alpha: 0.3). can drawString: 'abc'. can translateX: -1 Y: -1. can setPaint: (Color red). can drawString: 'abc'.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Every thing has its own flow"
Nice one :). Still not the same. Doru On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>wrote:
On Jun 11, 2012, at 8:11 AM, Tudor Girba wrote:
Sounds good.
Doru
p.s. Just please do not call the canvas a can :)
says the guy who calls "a" a "presenter"?
On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 5:03 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
I gonna introduce a naive protocol in canvas for drawing text.
Something like this:
can setFont: font.
can setPaint: (Color black alpha: 0.3).
can drawString: 'abc'.
can translateX: -1 Y: -1.
can setPaint: (Color red).
can drawString: 'abc'.
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Every thing has its own flow"
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
Did you publish in the meantime? :) Doru On 11 Jun 2012, at 04:47, Igor Stasenko wrote:
ok, i fixed the issues with text rendering in balloon.. alas, i cannot upload the fixes.. squeksource is down..
On 8 June 2012 12:14, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8 June 2012 07:59, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hi Igor,
On 8 Jun 2012, at 00:11, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
On 7 Jun 2012, at 15:57, Igor Stasenko wrote:
ouch.. looks like extension methods is wiped from LogicalFont.. i will add them back..
Thanks.
Please just let me know when you re-add the methods so that I can test it.
sure
Cheers, Doru
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"It's not what we do that matters most, it's how we do it."
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Quality cannot be an afterthought."
On 12 June 2012 07:39, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Did you publish in the meantime? :)
Yes. see Athens-Text-IgorStasenko.3
Doru
On 11 Jun 2012, at 04:47, Igor Stasenko wrote:
ok, i fixed the issues with text rendering in balloon.. alas, i cannot upload the fixes.. squeksource is down..
On 8 June 2012 12:14, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8 June 2012 07:59, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hi Igor,
On 8 Jun 2012, at 00:11, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
On 7 Jun 2012, at 15:57, Igor Stasenko wrote:
ouch.. looks like extension methods is wiped from LogicalFont.. i will add them back..
Thanks.
Please just let me know when you re-add the methods so that I can test it.
sure
Cheers, Doru
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"It's not what we do that matters most, it's how we do it."
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Quality cannot be an afterthought."
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Thanks. The StrikeFonts are still not supported by default :(. The problem is that until the VM will have the right plugin by default it's going to be difficult to adopt this canvas widely. Btw, where do I get the VM plugin (for Mac and Windows)? Doru On 12 Jun 2012, at 12:25, Igor Stasenko wrote:
On 12 June 2012 07:39, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Did you publish in the meantime? :)
Yes. see Athens-Text-IgorStasenko.3
Doru
On 11 Jun 2012, at 04:47, Igor Stasenko wrote:
ok, i fixed the issues with text rendering in balloon.. alas, i cannot upload the fixes.. squeksource is down..
On 8 June 2012 12:14, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8 June 2012 07:59, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hi Igor,
On 8 Jun 2012, at 00:11, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
On 7 Jun 2012, at 15:57, Igor Stasenko wrote:
ouch.. looks like extension methods is wiped from LogicalFont.. i will add them back..
Thanks.
Please just let me know when you re-add the methods so that I can test it.
sure
Cheers, Doru
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"It's not what we do that matters most, it's how we do it."
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Quality cannot be an afterthought."
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- www.tudorgirba.com "To lead is not to demand things, it is to make them happen."
On Jun 12, 2012, at 10:02 PM, Tudor Girba wrote:
Thanks.
The StrikeFonts are still not supported by default :(. The problem is that until the VM will have the right plugin by default it's going to be difficult to adopt this canvas widely.
Btw, where do I get the VM plugin (for Mac and Windows)?
Normally on the latest cocoa VM (may be I got it wrong) Now igor worked nights (and day) to get the plugin managed nicely with CMake. I think that what he did is really a good step forward to avoid statically linking old libraries :). It also means that we will be able to provide users a real experience (no sudo port universal bullshit). Stef
Hi, On 12 Jun 2012, at 22:14, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
On Jun 12, 2012, at 10:02 PM, Tudor Girba wrote:
Thanks.
The StrikeFonts are still not supported by default :(. The problem is that until the VM will have the right plugin by default it's going to be difficult to adopt this canvas widely.
Btw, where do I get the VM plugin (for Mac and Windows)?
Normally on the latest cocoa VM (may be I got it wrong) Now igor worked nights (and day) to get the plugin managed nicely with CMake. I think that what he did is really a good step forward to avoid statically linking old libraries :). It also means that we will be able to provide users a real experience (no sudo port universal bullshit).
Sorry for the confusion. I know about the work on Cairo. This will be so cool to get out of the box. I cannot wait :). I was referring to support for FreeTypeFonts. I am a bit confused on how to work with system fonts. Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com If you can't say why something is relevant, it probably isn't.
er... sorry, which plugin? On Jun 12, 2012, at 10:02 PM, Tudor Girba wrote:
Thanks.
The StrikeFonts are still not supported by default :(. The problem is that until the VM will have the right plugin by default it's going to be difficult to adopt this canvas widely.
Btw, where do I get the VM plugin (for Mac and Windows)?
Doru
On 12 Jun 2012, at 12:25, Igor Stasenko wrote:
On 12 June 2012 07:39, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Did you publish in the meantime? :)
Yes. see Athens-Text-IgorStasenko.3
Doru
On 11 Jun 2012, at 04:47, Igor Stasenko wrote:
ok, i fixed the issues with text rendering in balloon.. alas, i cannot upload the fixes.. squeksource is down..
On 8 June 2012 12:14, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8 June 2012 07:59, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hi Igor,
On 8 Jun 2012, at 00:11, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
On 7 Jun 2012, at 15:57, Igor Stasenko wrote:
ouch.. looks like extension methods is wiped from LogicalFont.. i will add them back..
Thanks.
Please just let me know when you re-add the methods so that I can test it.
sure
Cheers, Doru
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"It's not what we do that matters most, it's how we do it."
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Quality cannot be an afterthought."
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"To lead is not to demand things, it is to make them happen."
Sorry, I think messed up :). I got confused because the font dialog does not show the system fonts (on Mac at least), so I guessed I was missing some plugin. Cheers, Doru On 12 Jun 2012, at 22:17, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
er... sorry, which plugin?
On Jun 12, 2012, at 10:02 PM, Tudor Girba wrote:
Thanks.
The StrikeFonts are still not supported by default :(. The problem is that until the VM will have the right plugin by default it's going to be difficult to adopt this canvas widely.
Btw, where do I get the VM plugin (for Mac and Windows)?
Doru
On 12 Jun 2012, at 12:25, Igor Stasenko wrote:
On 12 June 2012 07:39, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Did you publish in the meantime? :)
Yes. see Athens-Text-IgorStasenko.3
Doru
On 11 Jun 2012, at 04:47, Igor Stasenko wrote:
ok, i fixed the issues with text rendering in balloon.. alas, i cannot upload the fixes.. squeksource is down..
On 8 June 2012 12:14, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8 June 2012 07:59, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hi Igor,
On 8 Jun 2012, at 00:11, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
On 7 Jun 2012, at 15:57, Igor Stasenko wrote:
ouch.. looks like extension methods is wiped from LogicalFont.. i will add them back..
Thanks.
Please just let me know when you re-add the methods so that I can test it.
sure
Cheers, Doru
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"It's not what we do that matters most, it's how we do it."
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Quality cannot be an afterthought."
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"To lead is not to demand things, it is to make them happen."
-- www.tudorgirba.com "To lead is not to demand things, it is to make them happen."
On 12 June 2012 22:02, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Thanks.
The StrikeFonts are still not supported by default :(.
that's a bit more difficult than fixing few missing messages :) i'm working on that.
The problem is that until the VM will have the right plugin by default it's going to be difficult to adopt this canvas widely.
I will bundle cairo library with NB Cog VMs. Not on windows, because i did not tried it on window yet.. but it should not take much time.
Btw, where do I get the VM plugin (for Mac and Windows)?
er... sorry, which plugin? (C) Esteban ;)
Doru
On 12 Jun 2012, at 12:25, Igor Stasenko wrote:
On 12 June 2012 07:39, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Did you publish in the meantime? :)
Yes. see Athens-Text-IgorStasenko.3
Doru
On 11 Jun 2012, at 04:47, Igor Stasenko wrote:
ok, i fixed the issues with text rendering in balloon.. alas, i cannot upload the fixes.. squeksource is down..
On 8 June 2012 12:14, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8 June 2012 07:59, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hi Igor,
On 8 Jun 2012, at 00:11, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
On 7 Jun 2012, at 15:57, Igor Stasenko wrote:
ouch.. looks like extension methods is wiped from LogicalFont.. i will add them back..
Thanks.
Please just let me know when you re-add the methods so that I can test it.
sure
Cheers, Doru
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"It's not what we do that matters most, it's how we do it."
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Quality cannot be an afterthought."
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"To lead is not to demand things, it is to make them happen."
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
participants (4)
-
Esteban Lorenzano -
Igor Stasenko -
Stéphane Ducasse -
Tudor Girba