More reliable VCS, Project management and tools?
Hello, I am doing some katas and challenges using pharo 5, and I got a bad impression from the VCS and Project management as a whole. I got a bunch of problems with, as it seems to me, simple stuff, and so I loose a lot of confidence with the system :( I get myself saving the image a lot and double checking anything done with version control. I am going to tell more or less what I have done in the last days for you to get an idea of the problems I had and then ask some questions. I am using Pharo 5 in a Windows 10 system and I was first trying to use GIT as the underlying provider for monticello. I know gitfiletree has problems in a windows system, but I tried to use it anyway to see what happens and I got an image unusable, with Nautilus package view messed up with red blocks and yellow crosses.... scary. I am not sure if that problem with Nautilus was actually caused by gitfiletree since I changed the package of the configuration of my project (I did that only to see if I could) and then rolled that back while testing gitfiletree... but, well, gitfiletree do not work on Windows, I got an index out of bounds exception or something like that, so I gave up and used filetree with a git client to make actual commits. However, for anyone to load my configurations and projects, I could not use filetree with a local directory, so I created a smalltalkhub repository and started to commit there and on my local filetree directory. I used Kommiter to commit onto smalltalkhub and Monticello to copy changes to my local file tree until I got and error using Komiter. I tried to proceed instead of abort and one of the packages didn't commit correctly. Trying to access it on the smalltalkhub site I got an error.... I opened Monticello and had to Flush Cached Version so that it stopped to tell me that there were no changes and started to prompt an error message. I had to forcibly save a new version so that it work again. If I go now to smalltalkhub, sometimes I got errors, sometimes don't. I don't know yet if the error was with komiter, smalltalkhub or my image. Oh, and Monticello sometimes says there are changes to pakages that I haven't changed, when I click on changes it discover that there are no changes and remover the "*" mark of it. I tried using Versioner too, but sometimes when I try to commit a minor version, for example, the system hangs and I need to "Alt + .". For now the reliable way of using versioner is to create a release version and commit from Monticello Right now I fell like stepping in a land mine, so I would like to know: 1- Shouldn't I be using Windows? Pharo isn't stable on a Windows plataform? 2- Is Komiter reliable or should I use Monticello directly? 3- Is Smalltalkhub reliable or should I use other repository? 4- I don't believe those problems are normal, otherwise there wouldn't be so many places using Pharo for production purpose, any hints of what I may be doing wrong? :( Thanks in advance and sorry if the stuff I am doing seems dumb... :( Regards, Vitor
Hi vitor thanks for this report. My answers are below and other will surely reply to you.
Hello,
I am doing some katas and challenges using pharo 5, and I got a bad impression from the VCS and Project management as a whole. I got a bunch of problems with, as it seems to me, simple stuff, and so I loose a lot of confidence with the system :( I get myself saving the image a lot and double checking anything done with version control. I am going to tell more or less what I have done in the last days for you to get an idea of the problems I had and then ask some questions.
I am using Pharo 5 in a Windows 10 system and I was first trying to use GIT as the underlying provider for monticello. I know gitfiletree has problems in a windows system, but I tried to use it anyway to see what happens and I got an image unusable, with Nautilus package view messed up with red blocks and yellow crosses.... scary. I am not sure if that problem with Nautilus was actually caused by gitfiletree since I changed the package of the configuration of my project (I did that only to see if I could) and then rolled that back while testing gitfiletree... but, well, gitfiletree do not work on Windows, I got an index out of bounds exception or something like that, so I gave up and used filetree with a git client to make actual commits.
However, for anyone to load my configurations and projects, I could not use filetree with a local directory, so I created a smalltalkhub repository and started to commit there and on my local filetree directory. I used Kommiter to commit onto smalltalkhub and Monticello to copy changes to my local file tree until I got and error using Komiter.
which one?
I tried to proceed instead of abort and one of the packages didn't commit correctly. Trying to access it on the smalltalkhub site I got an error.... Sometimes smalltalkhub is slow and we have a watch dog that kills it and restart it. I opened Monticello and had to Flush Cached Version What is that? I never saw it.
so that it stopped to tell me that there were no changes and started to prompt an error message. I had to forcibly save a new version so that it work again. If I go now to smalltalkhub, sometimes I got errors, sometimes don't. I don't know yet if the error was with komiter, smalltalkhub or my image.
Oh, and Monticello sometimes says there are changes to pakages that I haven't changed, when I click on changes it discover that there are no changes and remover the "*" mark of it.
I tried using Versioner too, but sometimes when I try to commit a minor version, for example, the system hangs and I need to "Alt + .". For now the reliable way of using versioner is to create a release version and commit from Monticello
Right now I fell like stepping in a land mine, so I would like to know:
OSSubProcess is not working on windows so it impacts git use. Do not use git. Let us make sure that everything is working well. We manage moose many many package with MC and pharo itself with Monticello and it works.
1- Shouldn't I be using Windows? Pharo isn't stable on a Windows plataform? I know that on windows there are some instabilities and we should work on them but not at this level. 2- Is Komiter reliable or should I use Monticello directly? I just fixed a glitch in Komitter when used from Versionner because I was annoyed. Most of the people do not use it and I suggested to remove it because this is a bad piece of code but people told me that this is important to be able to cherry pick.
3- Is Smalltalkhub reliable or should I use other repository? We manage moose many many package with MC and Pharo itself on SmalltalkHub so it is working. It has some glitches but overall it works and it is reliable. Sometimes it is getting slow and we should restart it. We receive mails when something is going wrong. 4- I don't believe those problems are normal, otherwise there wouldn't be so many places using Pharo for production purpose, any hints of what I may be doing wrong? :(
For the redCross - we got some regression with FreeType pluggin plugin since spur -- our current plan is to use uFFI and throw away the plugin code - it happens that at load time (when you import broken code) we get an error window and then when we close it a new UI process stay around and this is not good.
Thanks in advance and sorry if the stuff I am doing seems dumb... :(
This is not you. I'm sure. I'm a bug attractor so I know the feeling. Thanks to report any problem you have.
Regards, Vitor
Hi Vitor, Thanks for your report. Sorry I don't use Windows to respond directly to your issues, but a few comments... On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello,
I am doing some katas and challenges using pharo 5, and I got a bad impression from the VCS and Project management as a whole. I got a bunch of problems with, as it seems to me, simple stuff, and so I loose a lot of confidence with the system :( I get myself saving the image a lot and double checking anything done with version control. I am going to tell more or less what I have done in the last days for you to get an idea of the problems I had and then ask some questions.
I am using Pharo 5 in a Windows 10 system and I was first trying to use GIT as the underlying provider for monticello. I know gitfiletree has problems in a windows system, but I tried to use it anyway to see what happens and I got an image unusable, with Nautilus package view messed up with red blocks and yellow crosses.... scary. I am not sure if that problem with Nautilus was actually caused by gitfiletree since I changed the package of the configuration of my project (I did that only to see if I could) and then rolled that back while testing gitfiletree... but, well, gitfiletree do not work on Windows, I got an index out of bounds exception or something like that, so I gave up and used filetree with a git client to make actual commits.
However, for anyone to load my configurations and projects, I could not use filetree with a local directory, so I created a smalltalkhub repository and started to commit there and on my local filetree directory. I used Kommiter to commit onto smalltalkhub and Monticello to copy changes to my local file tree until I got and error using Komiter. I tried to proceed instead of abort and one of the packages didn't commit correctly. Trying to access it on the smalltalkhub site I got an error....
I opened Monticello and had to Flush Cached Version so that it stopped to tell me that there were no changes and started to prompt an error message. I had to forcibly save a new version so that it work again. If I go now to smalltalkhub, sometimes I got errors, sometimes don't. I don't know yet if the error was with komiter, smalltalkhub or my image.
Oh, and Monticello sometimes says there are changes to pakages that I haven't changed, when I click on changes it discover that there are no changes and remover the "*" mark of it.
This is an old niggle. I've not found this one to impact overall reliability of Monticello.
I tried using Versioner too, but sometimes when I try to commit a minor version, for example, the system hangs and I need to "Alt + .". For now the reliable way of using versioner is to create a release version and commit from Monticello
Right now I fell like stepping in a land mine, so I would like to know:
1- Shouldn't I be using Windows? Pharo isn't stable on a Windows platform?
Pharo has traditionally been very stable of Windows - but Pharo 5 had a major change to move to the Spur VM and change in FFI, so perhaps there are some things to iron out. Please help us to identify them.
2- Is Komiter reliable or should I use Monticello directly? 3- Is Smalltalkhub reliable or should I use other repository?
Smalltalkhub is generally reliable. There are occasionally some maintenance issues that are quickly resolved. You could also try... http://ss3.gemtalksystems.com/ http://squeaksource.com/
4- I don't believe those problems are normal, otherwise there wouldn't be so many places using Pharo for production purpose, any hints of what I may be doing wrong? :(
Often newcomers bump into problems because your usage is slightly different; or the rest of use have learned to unconsciously step over them like a wobbly slab in your garden path; or the rest of us live with / work around minor problems because they are outweighed by the benefits we gain from Pharo (that of course newcomers are yet to fully appreciate and the niggles are more obvious and a greater concern).
Thanks in advance and sorry if the stuff I am doing seems dumb... :(
Sometimes it can feel that way trying a new platform, but your experience is important for being different from those using Pharo a long time. There are more potential newcomers than there are users of Pharo. cheers -ben
Hello Vitor 2016-08-25 23:16 GMT-03:00 Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz@gmail.com>:
Hello,
I am doing some katas and challenges using pharo 5, and I got a bad impression from the VCS and Project management as a whole. I got a bunch of problems with, as it seems to me, simple stuff, and so I loose a lot of confidence with the system :( I get myself saving the image a lot and double checking anything done with version control. I am going to tell more or less what I have done in the last days for you to get an idea of the problems I had and then ask some questions.
I am using Pharo 5 in a Windows 10 system and I was first trying to use GIT as the underlying provider for monticello. I know gitfiletree has problems in a windows system, but I tried to use it anyway to see what happens and I got an image unusable, with Nautilus package view messed up with red blocks and yellow crosses.... scary. I am not sure if that problem with Nautilus was actually caused by gitfiletree since I changed the package of the configuration of my project (I did that only to see if I could) and then rolled that back while testing gitfiletree... but, well, gitfiletree do not work on Windows, I got an index out of bounds exception or something like that, so I gave up and used filetree with a git client to make actual commits.
However, for anyone to load my configurations and projects, I could not use filetree with a local directory, so I created a smalltalkhub repository and started to commit there and on my local filetree directory. I used Kommiter to commit onto smalltalkhub and Monticello to copy changes to my local file tree until I got and error using Komiter. I tried to proceed instead of abort and one of the packages didn't commit correctly. Trying to access it on the smalltalkhub site I got an error....
Maybe you mean Versionner? There is an issue in Pharo 5. Quick fix: KomStagingArea>>remotes self packages isEmpty ifFalse: [ | result | result := self packages first remotes. self packages allButFirst do: [ :each | result := result intersection: each remotes ]. ^ result collect: [ :each | each koRemote ] ]. ^ Array empty.
I opened Monticello and had to Flush Cached Version so that it stopped to tell me that there were no changes and started to prompt an error message. I had to forcibly save a new version so that it work again. If I go now to smalltalkhub, sometimes I got errors, sometimes don't. I don't know yet if the error was with komiter, smalltalkhub or my image.
Oh, and Monticello sometimes says there are changes to pakages that I haven't changed, when I click on changes it discover that there are no changes and remover the "*" mark of it.
I tried using Versioner too, but sometimes when I try to commit a minor version, for example, the system hangs and I need to "Alt + .". For now the reliable way of using versioner is to create a release version and commit from Monticello
Right now I fell like stepping in a land mine, so I would like to know:
1- Shouldn't I be using Windows? Pharo isn't stable on a Windows plataform?
Using Pharo 5 in Windows has some issues, I think most Pharoers are using Mac and Linux.
2- Is Komiter reliable or should I use Monticello directly?
I think you should use Versionner, with the fix above in Pharo 5.
3- Is Smalltalkhub reliable or should I use other repository?
Sometimes it hangs :( Hernán 4- I don't believe those problems are normal, otherwise there wouldn't be
so many places using Pharo for production purpose, any hints of what I may be doing wrong? :(
Thanks in advance and sorry if the stuff I am doing seems dumb... :(
Regards, Vitor
Hello, Thanks for the answers! stepharo I used Kommiter to commit onto smalltalkhub and Monticello to copy changes
to my local file tree until I got and error using Komiter.
which one?
I don't remember. When the error occurred I just proceed to see what would happened. if you go to http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/ ~vitormcruz/Katas-and-Challenges/packages/TwitterChallenge-Tests you will see that version 6 is missing, and in my image it was there until I Flush cached version. [image: Inline image 1] I suspect that for some reason coping the version to smalltalkhub didn't work and the system couldn't recover from this propoerly. I would expect the rollback of the entire commit operation, but the procedure commit the other packages and, as it seemed to me, put one of them in a cached ok status while nothing happened on the remote repository. What I liked about Kommiter is the possibility to commit multiple packages at once, in Monticello I haven't see a way to do this and as the number of packages increases committing becomes very bureaucrat. Versioner can do the same, it is Ben Coman "Oh, and Monticello sometimes says there are changes to pakages that I
haven't changed, when I click on changes it discover that there are no changes and remover the "*" mark of it.
This is an old niggle. I've not found this one to impact overall
reliability of Monticello."
Yes, but I get nervous when I see this glitch in a system or framework package since I should not be messing around with that stuff :) "> 1- Shouldn't I be using Windows? Pharo isn't stable on a Windows
platform?
Pharo has traditionally been very stable of Windows - but Pharo 5 had a major change to move to the Spur VM and change in FFI, so perhaps there are some things to iron out. Please help us to identify them."
I will try :) "> 4- I don't believe those problems are normal, otherwise there wouldn't
be so
many places using Pharo for production purpose, any hints of what I may be doing wrong? :(
Often newcomers bump into problems because your usage is slightly different; or the rest of use have learned to unconsciously step over them like a wobbly slab in your garden path; or the rest of us live with / work around minor problems because they are outweighed by the benefits we gain from Pharo (that of course newcomers are yet to fully appreciate and the niggles are more obvious and a greater concern)."
Let me tell you, I really like Smalltalk and it's vision, and I think Pharo has doing a great job, however, understanding this vision and start to take advantage of the system is hard, very hard. I can tell that because I have tried to explain it to some people and it is not something immediate obvious. I am convinced that only by using the system most people will really "get" it, you know what I mean? (just a fraction "get" before using it) So I agree with you, those niggles are a great concern while trying to bring newcomers :( . Another problem, however, is the difference between programming in Pharo and in other systems. I mean, now Pharo can execute from console (is there a console REPL?) , there is a web REPL and a bunch of nice frameworks to do a lot of stuff, but programming in Nautilus and with the whole image is waaaay different, there is the good stuff like the debugger and and the Dynamic system which makes you freeking productive, but there are really annoying stuff related to usability. For example, Nautilus take a good chunk of screen and many many things are done by clicking. You can't imagine how exasperating it is for someone used to IntelliJ having to switch methods by click, or having tons of screens that you have to manage by hand. Have you considered those kind of stuff already? I know you have tons of things to do, but I think those kind of stuff in sum with those niggles are a great barrier for newcomers... :( Hernán "However, for anyone to load my configurations and projects, I could not
use filetree with a local directory, so I created a smalltalkhub repository and started to commit there and on my local filetree directory. I used Kommiter to commit onto smalltalkhub and Monticello to copy changes to my local file tree until I got and error using Komiter. I tried to proceed instead of abort and one of the packages didn't commit correctly. Trying to access it on the smalltalkhub site I got an error....
Maybe you mean Versionner? There is an issue in Pharo 5. Quick fix:"
No, it was Komiter, but I experience problems with Versioner too, it get in a infinite loop when I try to do any kind of patch. I started a new fresh image, load my code and Versioner is working know, I don't understand what happened. Also, my image don't have KomStagingArea class, it was supposed to exist? Thanks again! Vitor On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 2:02 PM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Vitor
2016-08-25 23:16 GMT-03:00 Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz@gmail.com>:
Hello,
I am doing some katas and challenges using pharo 5, and I got a bad impression from the VCS and Project management as a whole. I got a bunch of problems with, as it seems to me, simple stuff, and so I loose a lot of confidence with the system :( I get myself saving the image a lot and double checking anything done with version control. I am going to tell more or less what I have done in the last days for you to get an idea of the problems I had and then ask some questions.
I am using Pharo 5 in a Windows 10 system and I was first trying to use GIT as the underlying provider for monticello. I know gitfiletree has problems in a windows system, but I tried to use it anyway to see what happens and I got an image unusable, with Nautilus package view messed up with red blocks and yellow crosses.... scary. I am not sure if that problem with Nautilus was actually caused by gitfiletree since I changed the package of the configuration of my project (I did that only to see if I could) and then rolled that back while testing gitfiletree... but, well, gitfiletree do not work on Windows, I got an index out of bounds exception or something like that, so I gave up and used filetree with a git client to make actual commits.
However, for anyone to load my configurations and projects, I could not use filetree with a local directory, so I created a smalltalkhub repository and started to commit there and on my local filetree directory. I used Kommiter to commit onto smalltalkhub and Monticello to copy changes to my local file tree until I got and error using Komiter. I tried to proceed instead of abort and one of the packages didn't commit correctly. Trying to access it on the smalltalkhub site I got an error....
Maybe you mean Versionner? There is an issue in Pharo 5. Quick fix:
KomStagingArea>>remotes
self packages isEmpty ifFalse: [ | result | result := self packages first remotes. self packages allButFirst do: [ :each | result := result intersection: each remotes ]. ^ result collect: [ :each | each koRemote ] ]. ^ Array empty.
I opened Monticello and had to Flush Cached Version so that it stopped to tell me that there were no changes and started to prompt an error message. I had to forcibly save a new version so that it work again. If I go now to smalltalkhub, sometimes I got errors, sometimes don't. I don't know yet if the error was with komiter, smalltalkhub or my image.
Oh, and Monticello sometimes says there are changes to pakages that I haven't changed, when I click on changes it discover that there are no changes and remover the "*" mark of it.
I tried using Versioner too, but sometimes when I try to commit a minor version, for example, the system hangs and I need to "Alt + .". For now the reliable way of using versioner is to create a release version and commit from Monticello
Right now I fell like stepping in a land mine, so I would like to know:
1- Shouldn't I be using Windows? Pharo isn't stable on a Windows plataform?
Using Pharo 5 in Windows has some issues, I think most Pharoers are using Mac and Linux.
2- Is Komiter reliable or should I use Monticello directly?
I think you should use Versionner, with the fix above in Pharo 5.
3- Is Smalltalkhub reliable or should I use other repository?
Sometimes it hangs :(
Hernán
4- I don't believe those problems are normal, otherwise there wouldn't be
so many places using Pharo for production purpose, any hints of what I may be doing wrong? :(
Thanks in advance and sorry if the stuff I am doing seems dumb... :(
Regards, Vitor
participants (4)
-
Ben Coman -
Hernán Morales Durand -
stepharo -
Vitor Medina Cruz