Ok I did not hear that you were talking :)

On 3 May 2020, at 22:30, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:

Hi erik

this is strange since during a couple of minutes we do not see much.

S.

...

On 3 May 2020, at 20:11, Erik Stel <erik.stel@gmail.com <mailto:erik.stel@gmail.com>> wrote:

I have published my first demo of a new type of webapplication based on a tiny Smalltalk image running in the browser, acting as the JS-engine. Create a dynamic application using Smalltalk only, with the direct manipulation you're familiar with from Smalltalk. And ...(in the near future)... with the same debugging capabilities. Still work in progress, but hopefully providing an idea of what's in store.

Feel free to ask questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvY7R6te7go <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvY7R6te7go>

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-------------------------------------------- Stéphane Ducasse http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr <http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/> / http://www.pharo.org <http://www.pharo.org/> 03 59 35 87 52 Assistant: Julie Jonas FAX 03 59 57 78 50 TEL 03 59 35 86 16 S. Ducasse - Inria 40, avenue Halley, Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, Bât.A, Park Plaza Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 France

-------------------------------------------- Stéphane Ducasse http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr / http://www.pharo.org 03 59 35 87 52 Assistant: Julie Jonas FAX 03 59 57 78 50 TEL 03 59 35 86 16 S. Ducasse - Inria 40, avenue Halley, Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, Bât.A, Park Plaza Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 France

Hi Erik,

So it could be a way of creating standalone web applications. If that was the thought behind the question.

Exactly. Even better, a standalone application that could be hosted on a plain static server, since all the code would run client-side.

I did use this mechanism of creating snapshots in an attempt to strip down a regular Pharo image and create the small image to run inside the browser. Until I decided that route was longer than doing the bootstrap route of creating an image from scratch ;-).

That's also something I have been wanting to look at... why are days so short? ;-) Konrad

Hi Craig,

...

...Even better, a standalone application that could be hosted on a plain static server, since all the code would run client-side.

E.g., https://caffeine.js.org/3d

Yes, caffeine is impressive, but also something very different from a standard single-page Web app showing standard HTML elements and no IDE in sight, in exchange for a small footprint. Konrad.

Hi Craig, I wonder if you had or could make something like this: https://jgthms.com/web-design-in-4-minutes/ that shows the value of caffeine in a way being placed into the default dev environment + readme doesn't. Specifically the way the person exposes both how to do CSS and the value/consequences of making some choices with it. It seems like your work would be really useful to me as a person that writes web apps in Smalltalk but I have no idea what "extra" I can do with it. I see I can tie in a lot of JS functionality while using a Smalltalk IDE in the browser. I'm not sure what to do with that beyond what I already know how to do with emacs and pharo or gemstone. Like a carpenter walking into a shop with end mills and lathes and welders and piles of raw steel in all shapes and sizes. Probably someone can do something cool with all that stuff but I'm afraid I'd just learn to make the same tables and bookshelves and bed frames I already know how to make with wood and miss the steel's inherent potential. I've watched the youtube presentation and navigated through the impress presentation on your site and it too quickly introduces tons of concepts of what you can do but nothing about why anyone should want to do those things or how to put them together into something a user would use once a developer has made something. I also think the dynamic nature of what you're making is cool but it seems like it adds another level of difficulty in making things comprehensible to/usable for/accessible by end users. Its clear something is there I just have no idea how to unlock the value for myself or current users and/or theoretical future users. Hope this helps in some way Paul Craig Latta wrote

Hi Konrad--

...

...Even better, a standalone application that could be hosted on a plain static server, since all the code would run client-side.

E.g., https://caffeine.js.org/3d

-C

-- Craig Latta Black Page Digital Amsterdam :: San Francisco

craig@

+31 6 2757 7177 + 1 415 287 3547

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Ahh. Apologies. I don't think I understand your point. Are you saying Smalltalkers habitually make obscure/cool things with no documentation and leave their coolness to make their case for adoption rather then helping people adopt them with documentation & other help? Or something else? I wasn't trying to be insulting of what he's done just to point out that the change of understanding between my conception of "the web" as it is today and his example of an alternate approach/worldview was steeeeep. Its clearly a lot and impressive. In the 3:36 video he shows how caffeine.js is usable, enables the use in the browser of live-coding loading js frameworks manipulating js frameworks aframe.io WebXR AR VR 2D projections of a 3D space normal Morphic on SqueakJS MorphicJS with normal Squeak HTML replication of the 4 pane code browser remote interaction between instances of caffeine (e.g. on other machines) GUI & backend javascript <-> Smalltalk two way AST parsing running in Node.js vs the browser Web Workers injecting code into node.js instances 6DOF headsets Non AR, non 6DOF headsets Speech control of caffeine WebMIDI to play a middle C Caffeine control of every tab in your browser (btw can I control your bank account's tab from my caffeine.js app you're running?) and implies that doing so is valuable. Each of those are complex domains to understand let alone the value of tying them all together. After watching it and reading about it (and things like Shaker) and trying it I just have no idea how to apply it to problems I'm aware of and if there was a "training wheels" demo then maybe I'd come to a better understanding. Or I'd learn about problems I'm not even thinking about because I have no tools for them. To me it gives the impression of "you too can work on cars: https://youtu.be/aHSUp7msCIE?t=21 see?" without the "these are wrenches, this is a nut and a bolt, when you use them together you can do this, which enables you to ...." part I know making and teaching are different skills both with their own difficulties. My main point was he could use his tool to lead a person along a path that shows how to adopt his tool rather than leave a person in the dev environment with an open readme. And have that be the first impression and a nice exposition of its flexibility and power. ponyatov wrote

...

I've watched the youtube presentation and navigated through the impress presentation on your site and it too quickly introduces tons of concepts of what you can do but nothing about why anyone should want to do those things or how to put them together into something a user would use once a developer has made something.

Oh, you are already feeling the Smalltalk community spirit.

That is a professor effect when everyone will be every day extoll and pitch how Smalltalk is cool, but nobody does not do any text or video blogging with etudes and reasoning how to use this magic for newbies, and why ever you need to use it at all in place of mainstream tools and languages already have and were documented anything you can imagine (except the Smalltalk interactivity and its memory persistence). The most fun you'll get with trying to make work of external libraries, that's the special feel of dropping dozens of errors due to incompatibility with your system.

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