On 22 August 2012 02:55, Hernán Morales Durand <hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Esteban,

Sorry but I have to say the poll is pretty narrow. It could be hundred of interesting questions. I offer myself to help providing more questions, let's find what really users want...

can i be first to answer? i want less annoying polls with hundreds of questions the number of questions in poll is in reverse proportion to number of people willing to answer it :)

Cheers,

Hernán

2012/8/21 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>

...

Hi guys,

I created a small poll to know which versions of pharo are you using and with which purpose... can you be so kind and fill the form? is really small and can provide some insights about further directions :)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?fromEmail=true&formkey=dFZKeXUw...

Thanks, Esteban

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

On 22 August 2012 04:30, Hernán Morales Durand <hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:

2012/8/21 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>

...

On 22 August 2012 02:55, Hernán Morales Durand <hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi Esteban,

Sorry but I have to say the poll is pretty narrow. It could be hundred of interesting questions. I offer myself to help providing more questions, let's find what really users want...

can i be first to answer?

No problem :)

...

i want less annoying polls with hundreds of questions

Sure, not questioning is the right way to gain more knowledge.

...

the number of questions in poll is in reverse proportion to number of people willing to answer it :)

Proof?

That's so obvious. Imagine someone stands before huge auditory and saying: - i can make a great thing, which will improve our daily life , all i asking for is to give me 1 penny from everyone. or: - i can make a great thing, which will improve our daily life , all i asking for is to give me 1 million bucks from everyone. :) -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

2012/8/22 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>

or look at this form another perspective: if you know how to make things better, improve them, what you waiting for and not doing it in a first place?

I'm doing it, saying that a brief poll could be better is pushing Pharo developers to make things better. Don't you think so?

Pharo is open project after all. Or at least, if you having a great idea but have no time/resources to do it, why you don't proposing it or asking around who interested in implementing it, but sitting there waiting to be asked ..

Yes, I'd like to be asked for the right questions. Your questions tell me your interests much as your lack of questions. I'm proposing more accurate polls... like "which packages do you use often?", "which non-core Collection classes do you need more?", "do you use Traits?", etc. Nobody is obliged to answer any poll, if too many questions, you just don't answer :) Hernán

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

-- Hernán Morales Institute of Veterinary Genetics. National Scientific and Technical Research Council (CONICET). La Plata (1900), Buenos Aires, Argentina. Telephone: +54 (0221) 421-1799. Internal: 422 Fax: 425-7980 or 421-1799.

Hi Esteban. Thanks for clarifying. For me it doesn't need to be perfect. Answering polls is fun actually if you know how to enjoy. So I'm looking forward to more questions :) Cheers, Hernán 2012/8/22 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>

Hernan,

There is always room for improvement, but I think you are missing the point here. Of course, the poll is narrow (*all* polls are)... We could collect more data, but there is no poll without a question to answer, and here the real question is "what for?" What questions do you want to answer when making a poll. And then, when you see narrowness, I see clarity: I just have three questions that want answered (well, and a "hidden" one, but that's for later :). In fact, two of your three examples of questions were present in my first draft, and I removed them because they didn't provide more insight in *my* questions, which are pretty straightforward. Yes, I missed some other interesting questions for what I'm looking for, e.g. "why are you still using an older version of Pharo?", but well... you cannot make it perfect :) Of course, everybody has their own questions, and of course, if you want a "pharo census", we need to make much more questions... but that was off what I was looking for :)

Esteban

ps: yes, we can prepare a "pharo census", that can be interesting information too, and I would really like to have your help on preparing it... but lets complete this one small poll first.

On Aug 22, 2012, at 6:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:

2012/8/22 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>

...

or look at this form another perspective: if you know how to make things better, improve them, what you waiting for and not doing it in a first place?

I'm doing it, saying that a brief poll could be better is pushing Pharo developers to make things better. Don't you think so?

...

Pharo is open project after all. Or at least, if you having a great idea but have no time/resources to do it, why you don't proposing it or asking around who interested in implementing it, but sitting there waiting to be asked ..

Yes, I'd like to be asked for the right questions. Your questions tell me your interests much as your lack of questions. I'm proposing more accurate polls... like "which packages do you use often?", "which non-core Collection classes do you need more?", "do you use Traits?", etc. Nobody is obliged to answer any poll, if too many questions, you just don't answer :)

Hernán

...

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

-- Hernán Morales Institute of Veterinary Genetics. National Scientific and Technical Research Council (CONICET). La Plata (1900), Buenos Aires, Argentina. Telephone: +54 (0221) 421-1799. Internal: 422 Fax: 425-7980 or 421-1799.

On 22 August 2012 06:05, Hernán Morales Durand <hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:

2012/8/22 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>

...

or look at this form another perspective: if you know how to make things better, improve them, what you waiting for and not doing it in a first place?

I'm doing it, saying that a brief poll could be better is pushing Pharo developers to make things better. Don't you think so?

The main problem with this is that often questions and received answers will remain to be just a questions and received answers: the results are never implemented/reflected into something material. So, as to me it is more useful to do something real instead of asking around "what something real we should do?" and then unable to do it. Everyone wants X, but nobody doing it. Do you know how many of those X's i heard over past few years? More than you can do even if you spend all of your life doing them.

...

Pharo is open project after all. Or at least, if you having a great idea but have no time/resources to do it, why you don't proposing it or asking around who interested in implementing it, but sitting there waiting to be asked ..

Yes, I'd like to be asked for the right questions. Your questions tell me your interests much as your lack of questions. I'm proposing more accurate polls... like "which packages do you use often?", "which non-core Collection classes do you need more?", "do you use Traits?", etc. Nobody is obliged to answer any poll, if too many questions, you just don't answer :)

Once again, i don't think that showing interest in something in form of pool is the best way to communicate.. And polls is one way communication.. and pretty obscure one. For example, if you ask in poll "do you use Traits" most of people may answer "no", so that may drive your decision to remove them.. until you discover that most of people actually meant to say is: "i don't use traits in my current project, but they should stay because they can be useful and i can see their potential"

Hernán

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

2012/8/22 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>

On 22 August 2012 06:05, Hernán Morales Durand <hernan.morales@gmail.com> wrote:

...

2012/8/22 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>

...

or look at this form another perspective: if you know how to make things better, improve them, what you waiting for and not doing it in a first place?

I'm doing it, saying that a brief poll could be better is pushing Pharo developers to make things better. Don't you think so?

The main problem with this is that often questions and received answers will remain to be just a questions and received answers: the results are never implemented/reflected into something material. So, as to me it is more useful to do something real instead of asking around "what something real we should do?" and then unable to do it.

Everyone wants X, but nobody doing it. Do you know how many of those X's i heard over past few years? More than you can do even if you spend all of your life doing them.

I see, but I'm not talking about what people wants. Just saying that more good feedback would be useful to Pharo developers for future releases. It doesn't mean asking for feature X.

...

...

Pharo is open project after all. Or at least, if you having a great idea but have no time/resources to do it, why you don't proposing it or asking around who interested in implementing it, but sitting there waiting to be asked ..

Yes, I'd like to be asked for the right questions. Your questions tell me your interests much as your lack of questions. I'm proposing more accurate polls... like "which packages do you use often?", "which non-core Collection classes do you need more?", "do you use Traits?", etc. Nobody is obliged to answer any poll, if too many questions, you just don't answer :)

Once again, i don't think that showing interest in something in form of pool is the best way to communicate.. And polls is one way communication.. and pretty obscure one.

I disagree with your obscurity claim. There have been even democratic elections through internet based polls. There are hundreds of case studies based on polls/surveys in the software engineering knowledge management field. There are peer-reviewed scientific papers discussing e-voting infrastructure systems. It's ok if you don't want to use the available technology for polls, but believing it's an obscure communication is not valid anymore.

For example, if you ask in poll "do you use Traits" most of people may answer "no", so that may drive your decision to remove them.. until you discover that most of people actually meant to say is: "i don't use traits in my current project, but they should stay because they can be useful and i can see their potential"

You are worried about falsifications, but you may ask cleverly. For example, you could ask "do you see potential use of Traits for your future projects?" and "do you have verifiable experience with Traits?". It takes some time, but you may discover much more than sitting there without questioning yourself anything.

...

Hernán

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

2012/8/22 Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name>

Am 22.08.2012 um 04:30 schrieb Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.morales@gmail.com>:

Proof?

You offered already to provide questions. Just create a long survey and invite everyone on that list. Then ask Esteban how many answered his poll and compare it with the number you got ;)

Is not the same, because AFAIK Esteban is working (payed) for Pharo, then he's actually in a different position when posing questions.

Norbert

thats other of the questions I took off in my effort to keep the poll simple. yes... I agree with both things: it would be good to know and it looks like mac is the most used Esteban On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:56 PM, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <emaringolo@gmail.com> wrote:

This is a side question of the poll, but what is the predominant OS used for development today? (with Pharo, of course).

It seems to me(*), that many of the most active contributors are using some kind of Mac.

(*) Based on screenshots, comments, tools mentioned, etc.

Do we have any info about this?

Best regards,

-- Esteban.

-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-usage-poll-tp4644852p4644988.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.