On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 2:55 AM, Викентий Потапов <vikenti.potapov@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Stef, also thank all of you for your support. It is very important to me and shows that Pharo is really in progress. I didn't ever complained - i just asked simple questions on topics i don't know. And i get lot's of answers to make some decisions. I understand where to get information and what are the prospects of using Pharo.

I came to Pharo looking for appropreate Smalltalk implementation after Cincom denied access to its PUL version of VW. I found Pharo as the most advanced but it also has its disadvantages.

My project is a desktop GUI application with some hacks with saving data to\from image on-the-fly and lots of GUI dialogs + complex custom GUI control. It is a kind of personal data\information manager.

Did you look at the Spec book?

I'm very lazy and i like to read rich manuals more than to investigate complex code.

Me too. But nobody gets paid to write documentation not even me. I think it is much more natural when you don't need to study the whole system before you can do simple things. For example, i don't want to waste lots of time to understand what is the difference between bloc and spec, i want to read few paragraphs of manual and look into some class comments, and than do the task.

Bloc is not for you.

So i think you made a great progress in this direction with Spec - the manual is very clear and allows developing UI with minimal efforts - just to read some abstracts from manual.

You see we wrote this manual for FREE. I will also update it for FREE.

But in some areas i need to ask somebody who knows much more than i do. And i don't think there could be "dumb questions", but a _lack_of_information_. Also, when something is evident to one - it could be not so evident to another person. That is why i ask such simple things.

There is no problem. Just think that Pharo is open source and that it is our COMMON GOODS. We all share it and we ALL try to make it better.

Also i became accustomed to the situation when platform implements some basic stuff like i wrote earlier (UI tools, i18n, deployment, etc) and it was not evident to me that such modern system as Pharo cannot do it, so i asked about it.

Sure now you can improve Pharo too.

I have seen that Pharo is powerful system but i need to decide what to do: 1) create some personal solution based on different answers above. Lots of code investigations, coding and debugging (fixing existed bugs that are not on pharo roadmap).

If you have many forms you may have a look at magritte the Morph builder does not work anymore but may be it is worth fixing it.

2) wait until some release of Pharo fix bugs with non-latin paths, implement minimal level of integrated with UI framework i18n and deployment\packaging of applications.

It does not work like that. If you do not open a bug entry with a clear problem description why people not having this problem should fix it? We are making sure that Pharo can be used for people to deliver product and make money but we have also our agenda and duties. Now the best things that you can do is help yourself and we will help you but do not expect that magically we fix the problems you have. Look for example Alistair spotted some problems in FileSystem and he fixed them and we integrated them for the benefits of EVERYBODY.

Every software developer tries to find the simplest solution for his task.

Yes but this is not the point. Pharo can shape your future and Pharo is not a close product. Now we can all contribute. Just start to open a bug entry with a test. This is the first step if you want that we spend time on your problem.

I apologized if i said something wrong, i really didn't want to hurt somebody's feelings.

No do not worry. I have a strong skin :) Stef

Vikenti.

...

We are focused on deployment but not the same way. We are the first system that bootstrap a core and can load dependencies on this core. We have a dependency analyser that is really advanced since it can check that you have message that are not in extension of packages that you use. In January I hope that we will start packaging Applications (versus packaging code), so that people can deploy desktop applications more easily.

Now if people like vikenti wants our support. They should learn how to engage a discussion with us and not just complain :)

Stef

Op 13-11-2017 om 02:55 schreef Викентий Потапов:

I'm very lazy and i like to read rich manuals more than to investigate complex code. I think it is much more natural when you don't need to study the whole system before you can do simple things.

The "thriving on chaos" kind of development with fast change we do in Pharo is not likely to develop many artifacts like that. The parts that stabilize develop them, and the ones that are in flux don't. An issue might be that Pharo is slightly different in so many ways, and you are confronted with much more change than you are used to with VW. It takes time to adapt to a situation where continuous learning is needed and wanted, and the time where VW changed so fast is long over.

For example, i don't want to waste lots of time to understand what is the difference between bloc and spec, i want to read few paragraphs of manual and look into some class comments, and than do the task. So i think you made a great progress in this direction with Spec - the manual is very clear and allows developing UI with minimal efforts - just to read some abstracts from manual.

Another difference is that in Pharo the development is transparent, you see all the new ideas and prototypes, good and bad. That is totally different from closed source development, where you only get a chance to react to things that are more or less finished. On the one hand that means you waste time on things that turn out to be bad ideas, on the other hand you have actual influence on how Pharo develops.

But in some areas i need to ask somebody who knows much more than i do. And i don't think there could be "dumb questions", but a _lack_of_information_. Also, when something is evident to one - it could be not so evident to another person. That is why i ask such simple things.

There is no assumption of dumb questions. We assume we fail to document well enough. The questions were good enough and for some parts our answers are not yet good enough. We improve and continue to improve. The way we are now able to quickly create booklets about a subject is much better than what we did before.

Also i became accustomed to the situation when platform implements some basic stuff like i wrote earlier (UI tools, i18n, deployment, etc) and it was not evident to me that such modern system as Pharo cannot do it, so i asked about it.

One of our fallacies is wanting to do things better than existing systems. That sometimes results in parts that are in development for too long, and having to live with parts that are not finished. Also, open source frameworks are often only finished to the level needed for the original author's application.

I have seen that Pharo is powerful system but i need to decide what to do: 1) create some personal solution based on different answers above. Lots of code investigations, coding and debugging (fixing existed bugs that are not on pharo roadmap).

I find the Pharo community is open to fixing bugs and answering questions. Open source definitely has the property that you are much more likely to get help if you show that you have tried to find a solution. Being less close to a large concentration of Pharo developers I've found it very useful to show what I have been playing with and where I'm running into.

2) wait until some release of Pharo fix bugs with non-latin paths, implement minimal level of integrated with UI framework i18n and deployment\packaging of applications.

Pharo is improving at a speed with which I'm certain that will happen. It will be sooner if you make Pharo yours, and help us get there. Stephan