https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/ FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference documentation for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo. Richard
Pharo has some good documentation, but its more lesson-based than a library reference. Those of us familiar with Pharo know the tricks to use the system itself as that reference, but I'd imagine this is an unfamiliar workflow for newcomers. I have seen before a class library reference generated from the image, but I couldn't put my hands on it right now. @all, is it still being generated?. This might provide newcomers something more familiar to work with. cheers -ben On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:00, Richard Kenneth Eng <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/
FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference documentation for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo.
Richard
Or we teach people to fishâ¦? Whatâs the point of duplicating everything thatâs already in the image anyway - we just need to be cleverer or ensure that people know to look there and have the right onboarding experience to do that? Otherwise its just another thing that gets out of date very rapidly and we already have enough problems with that. Iâd be interested in what intro material Richard gave the students to start with (after all - he has quite a few tutorials of his own, some of which I had followed - but I suspect they are out of date now themselves). When you launch pharo there is the helpful welcome screen - did the studentâs actually use it and follow what it says? And did we see any of them in this forum (or was that against the rules?) Tim
On 24 Mar 2020, at 17:28, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
Pharo has some good documentation, but its more lesson-based than a library reference. Those of us familiar with Pharo know the tricks to use the system itself as that reference, but I'd imagine this is an unfamiliar workflow for newcomers.
I have seen before a class library reference generated from the image, but I couldn't put my hands on it right now. @all, is it still being generated?. This might provide newcomers something more familiar to work with.
cheers -ben
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:00, Richard Kenneth Eng <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com <mailto:horrido.hobbies@gmail.com>> wrote: https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/ <https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/>
FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference documentation for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo.
Richard
This is what I provided the JRMPC participants: https://jrmpc.ca/ (see "How to learn Smalltalk programming"). I'm not sure how I could've done better, though. You make an excellent point about duplication and keeping documentation up-to-date. However, there has to be some middle ground that makes it easier and more convenient for new developers to find the tools they need. Perhaps a synoptical reference showing the more common classes used, such as collections, web-related classes, time-related classes, exception and error classes, file system-related classes, process-related classes, and so on. These classes ought not to change much, if at all. Tim Mackinnon wrote
Or we teach people to fishâ¦? Whatâs the point of duplicating everything thatâs already in the image anyway - we just need to be cleverer or ensure that people know to look there and have the right onboarding experience to do that? Otherwise its just another thing that gets out of date very rapidly and we already have enough problems with that.
Iâd be interested in what intro material Richard gave the students to start with (after all - he has quite a few tutorials of his own, some of which I had followed - but I suspect they are out of date now themselves). When you launch pharo there is the helpful welcome screen - did the studentâs actually use it and follow what it says?
And did we see any of them in this forum (or was that against the rules?)
Tim
On 24 Mar 2020, at 17:28, Ben Coman <
btc@
> wrote:
Pharo has some good documentation, but its more lesson-based than a library reference. Those of us familiar with Pharo know the tricks to use the system itself as that reference, but I'd imagine this is an unfamiliar workflow for newcomers.
I have seen before a class library reference generated from the image, but I couldn't put my hands on it right now. @all, is it still being generated?. This might provide newcomers something more familiar to work with.
cheers -ben
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:00, Richard Kenneth Eng <
horrido.hobbies@
<mailto:
horrido.hobbies@
>> wrote:
https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/ <https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/>;
FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference documentation for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo.
Richard
-- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
On Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 08:49 horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
This is what I provided the JRMPC participants: https://jrmpc.ca/ (see "How to learn Smalltalk programming"). I'm not sure how I could've done better, though.
You make an excellent point about duplication and keeping documentation up-to-date. However, there has to be some middle ground that makes it easier and more convenient for new developers to find the tools they need. Perhaps a synoptical reference showing the more common classes used, such as collections, web-related classes, time-related classes, exception and error classes, file system-related classes, process-related classes, and so on. These classes ought not to change much, if at all.
I agree with this. So many times I have seen documentation that could be compared to what results from throwing a plate of spaghetti (Bolognese!) at a wall. Usually what's lacking is the kind of information that might be called a road map. Not so much in the sense of a set of directions, but like a real road map or a transit system map, lays out the routes and shows the connections between important places. Pulling numbers out of thin air, it might be that as little as 1% of the system details would suffice to show a novice how things fit together and how to easily navigate the detailed information. Like you suggest, this small fraction would be at a high enough level or of such importance that it would be unlikely to become stale.
Tim Mackinnon wrote
Or we teach people to fishâ¦? Whatâs the point of duplicating everything thatâs already in the image anyway - we just need to be cleverer or ensure that people know to look there and have the right onboarding experience to do that? Otherwise its just another thing that gets out of date very rapidly and we already have enough problems with that.
Iâd be interested in what intro material Richard gave the students to start with (after all - he has quite a few tutorials of his own, some of which I had followed - but I suspect they are out of date now themselves). When you launch pharo there is the helpful welcome screen - did the studentâs actually use it and follow what it says?
And did we see any of them in this forum (or was that against the rules?)
Tim
On 24 Mar 2020, at 17:28, Ben Coman <
btc@
> wrote:
Pharo has some good documentation, but its more lesson-based than a library reference. Those of us familiar with Pharo know the tricks to use the system itself as that reference, but I'd imagine this is an unfamiliar workflow for newcomers.
I have seen before a class library reference generated from the image, but I couldn't put my hands on it right now. @all, is it still being generated?. This might provide newcomers something more familiar to work with.
cheers -ben
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:00, Richard Kenneth Eng <
horrido.hobbies@
<mailto:
horrido.hobbies@
>> wrote:
https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/ < https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/>;
FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference documentation for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo.
Richard
-- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
I am a little confused here. I originally learned Smalltalk from the coloured books and then Inside Smalltalk. When I got the chance to use Squeak, pretty much everything from those books carried over well enough for me to hit the ground running. There are lots of free e-books about Smalltalk, not least Pharo By Example. Had these people who were polled read PBE? On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 at 04:49, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
This is what I provided the JRMPC participants: https://jrmpc.ca/ (see "How to learn Smalltalk programming"). I'm not sure how I could've done better, though.
You make an excellent point about duplication and keeping documentation up-to-date. However, there has to be some middle ground that makes it easier and more convenient for new developers to find the tools they need. Perhaps a synoptical reference showing the more common classes used, such as collections, web-related classes, time-related classes, exception and error classes, file system-related classes, process-related classes, and so on. These classes ought not to change much, if at all.
Tim Mackinnon wrote
Or we teach people to fishâ¦? Whatâs the point of duplicating everything thatâs already in the image anyway - we just need to be cleverer or ensure that people know to look there and have the right onboarding experience to do that? Otherwise its just another thing that gets out of date very rapidly and we already have enough problems with that.
Iâd be interested in what intro material Richard gave the students to start with (after all - he has quite a few tutorials of his own, some of which I had followed - but I suspect they are out of date now themselves). When you launch pharo there is the helpful welcome screen - did the studentâs actually use it and follow what it says?
And did we see any of them in this forum (or was that against the rules?)
Tim
On 24 Mar 2020, at 17:28, Ben Coman <
btc@
> wrote:
Pharo has some good documentation, but its more lesson-based than a library reference. Those of us familiar with Pharo know the tricks to use the system itself as that reference, but I'd imagine this is an unfamiliar workflow for newcomers.
I have seen before a class library reference generated from the image, but I couldn't put my hands on it right now. @all, is it still being generated?. This might provide newcomers something more familiar to work with.
cheers -ben
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:00, Richard Kenneth Eng <
horrido.hobbies@
<mailto:
horrido.hobbies@
>> wrote:
https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/ <https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/>;
FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference documentation for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo.
Richard
-- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
I didn't ask them that, but I did provide the link to PBE. It was up to them to learn any way they wish. You can't mandate people to read PBE. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. PBE is not a good resource if you want to look up classes that you need for your application. Just as you guys provide a quick reference for Pharo syntax, you should provide a quick reference for the class library, too. That would definitely ease the learning curve. All programming languages rely on a "standard library" (in our case, a standard class library). No self-respecting language would lack a standard library reference, whether we're talking about C, C++, C#, Java, Python, etc. Even GNU Smalltalk understood this. <https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/gst-base.html> Richard O'Keefe wrote
I am a little confused here. I originally learned Smalltalk from the coloured books and then Inside Smalltalk. When I got the chance to use Squeak, pretty much everything from those books carried over well enough for me to hit the ground running. There are lots of free e-books about Smalltalk, not least Pharo By Example. Had these people who were polled read PBE?
On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 at 04:49, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
This is what I provided the JRMPC participants: https://jrmpc.ca/ (see "How to learn Smalltalk programming"). I'm not sure how I could've done better, though.
You make an excellent point about duplication and keeping documentation up-to-date. However, there has to be some middle ground that makes it easier and more convenient for new developers to find the tools they need. Perhaps a synoptical reference showing the more common classes used, such as collections, web-related classes, time-related classes, exception and error classes, file system-related classes, process-related classes, and so on. These classes ought not to change much, if at all.
Tim Mackinnon wrote
Or we teach people to fishâ¦? Whatâs the point of duplicating everything thatâs already in the image anyway - we just need to be cleverer or ensure that people know to look there and have the right onboarding experience to do that? Otherwise its just another thing that gets out of date very rapidly and we already have enough problems with that.
Iâd be interested in what intro material Richard gave the students to start with (after all - he has quite a few tutorials of his own, some of which I had followed - but I suspect they are out of date now themselves). When you launch pharo there is the helpful welcome screen - did the studentâs actually use it and follow what it says?
And did we see any of them in this forum (or was that against the rules?)
Tim
On 24 Mar 2020, at 17:28, Ben Coman <
btc@
> wrote:
Pharo has some good documentation, but its more lesson-based than a library reference. Those of us familiar with Pharo know the tricks to use the system
itself
as that reference, but I'd imagine this is an unfamiliar workflow for newcomers.
I have seen before a class library reference generated from the image, but I couldn't put my hands on it right now. @all, is it still being generated?. This might provide newcomers something more familiar to work with.
cheers -ben
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:00, Richard Kenneth Eng <
horrido.hobbies@
<mailto:
horrido.hobbies@
>> wrote:
https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/
<https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/>;
FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference
documentation
for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo.
Richard
-- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
-- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
Could the class documentation you are looking for be generated automagically from the class comments? The first para could be a blurb describing the purpose of the class. The resulting document could be searchable. --Trygve On 26.03.2020 14:43, horrido wrote:
I didn't ask them that, but I did provide the link to PBE. It was up to them to learn any way they wish.
You can't mandate people to read PBE. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
PBE is not a good resource if you want to look up classes that you need for your application. Just as you guys provide a quick reference for Pharo syntax, you should provide a quick reference for the class library, too. That would definitely ease the learning curve.
All programming languages rely on a "standard library" (in our case, a standard class library). No self-respecting language would lack a standard library reference, whether we're talking about C, C++, C#, Java, Python, etc. Even GNU Smalltalk understood this. <https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/gst-base.html>
Richard O'Keefe wrote
I am a little confused here. I originally learned Smalltalk from the coloured books and then Inside Smalltalk. When I got the chance to use Squeak, pretty much everything from those books carried over well enough for me to hit the ground running. There are lots of free e-books about Smalltalk, not least Pharo By Example. Had these people who were polled read PBE?
On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 at 04:49, horrido < horrido.hobbies@ > wrote:
This is what I provided the JRMPC participants: https://jrmpc.ca/ (see "How to learn Smalltalk programming"). I'm not sure how I could've done better, though.
You make an excellent point about duplication and keeping documentation up-to-date. However, there has to be some middle ground that makes it easier and more convenient for new developers to find the tools they need. Perhaps a synoptical reference showing the more common classes used, such as collections, web-related classes, time-related classes, exception and error classes, file system-related classes, process-related classes, and so on. These classes ought not to change much, if at all.
Tim Mackinnon wrote
Or we teach people to fishâ¦? Whatâs the point of duplicating everything thatâs already in the image anyway - we just need to be cleverer or ensure that people know to look there and have the right onboarding experience to do that? Otherwise its just another thing that gets out of date very rapidly and we already have enough problems with that.
Iâd be interested in what intro material Richard gave the students to start with (after all - he has quite a few tutorials of his own, some of which I had followed - but I suspect they are out of date now themselves). When you launch pharo there is the helpful welcome screen - did the studentâs actually use it and follow what it says?
And did we see any of them in this forum (or was that against the rules?) Tim
On 24 Mar 2020, at 17:28, Ben Coman < btc@ > wrote: Pharo has some good documentation, but its more lesson-based than a library reference. Those of us familiar with Pharo know the tricks to use the system itself as that reference, but I'd imagine this is an unfamiliar workflow for newcomers.
I have seen before a class library reference generated from the image, but I couldn't put my hands on it right now. @all, is it still being generated?. This might provide newcomers something more familiar to work with.
cheers -ben
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:00, Richard Kenneth Eng < horrido.hobbies@ <mailto: horrido.hobbies@ >> wrote: https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/
<https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/>;
FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference documentation for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo. Richard
-- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
-- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
-- /The essence of object orientation is that objects collaborateto achieve a goal. / Trygve Reenskaug mailto: trygver@ifi.uio.no <mailto:%20trygver@ifi.uio.no> Morgedalsvn. 5A http://folk.uio.no/trygver/ N-0378 Oslo http://fullOO.info Norway                     Tel: (+47) 22 49 57 27
Exactly! The JRMPC participants were more used to looking things up quickly and easily, rather than exploring. It's not easy to teach people how to explore a system for needed information, and more importantly, it's a time-consuming process. People are impatient. Smalltalk is not for impatient people, and that's the major problem. Ben Coman wrote
Pharo has some good documentation, but its more lesson-based than a library reference. Those of us familiar with Pharo know the tricks to use the system itself as that reference, but I'd imagine this is an unfamiliar workflow for newcomers.
I have seen before a class library reference generated from the image, but I couldn't put my hands on it right now. @all, is it still being generated?. This might provide newcomers something more familiar to work with.
cheers -ben
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:00, Richard Kenneth Eng <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/
FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference documentation for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo.
Richard
-- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 7:29 PM Richard Kenneth Eng <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/
FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference documentation for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo.
Hi! If you discovered part of the system that are not documented enough and that blocked the participants, do not hesitate to open issues on Pharo-wiki so that we can think about documenting them in it! https://github.com/pharo-open-documentation/pharo-wiki Have a nice day.
Richard
-- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr
participants (8)
-
Ben Coman -
Cyril Ferlicot -
horrido -
Richard Kenneth Eng
-
Richard O'Keefe -
Richard Sargent -
Tim Mackinnon -
Trygve Reenskaug