inspect returns iOf SystemWindow and not receiver
Hi, while developing my app with seaside, I sometimes use inspect within any statement. I am used from Pharo 1.4 and from other smalltalk dialects, that >>inspect returns the receiver itself. But in Pharo 2.0 it returns an instance of SystemWindow. I dont see any sense in that. It that with intent? Sabine -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/inspect-returns-iOf-SystemWindow-and-not-receiver-tp46... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 8 June 2013 20:29, Sabine Knöfel <sabine.knoefel@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
while developing my app with seaside, I sometimes use inspect within any statement. I am used from Pharo 1.4 and from other smalltalk dialects, that >>inspect returns the receiver itself. But in Pharo 2.0 it returns an instance of SystemWindow. I dont see any sense in that. It that with intent?
I was not behind the change, but i think answering window is more useful than just receiver. Since you sending 'inspect' message to object you already having access to it, and getting same object back is less useful, than inspector window, which you can give extra instructions (like placement etc).
Sabine
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/inspect-returns-iOf-SystemWindow-and-not-receiver-tp46... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
I think the reason was the need of registering onWindowClose: event or closing the window by the code easily. Now you can do : | w | w := Object inspect. w onWindowClosed: [ ... ]. ... w close. 2013/6/9 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>
On 8 June 2013 20:29, Sabine Knöfel <sabine.knoefel@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
while developing my app with seaside, I sometimes use inspect within any statement. I am used from Pharo 1.4 and from other smalltalk dialects, that
inspect returns the receiver itself. But in Pharo 2.0 it returns an instance of SystemWindow. I dont see any sense in that. It that with intent?
I was not behind the change, but i think answering window is more useful than just receiver. Since you sending 'inspect' message to object you already having access to it, and getting same object back is less useful, than inspector window, which you can give extra instructions (like placement etc).
Sabine
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/inspect-returns-iOf-SystemWindow-and-not-receiver-tp46... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Clément Béra Mate Virtual Machine Engineer Bâtiment B 40, avenue Halley 59650 *Villeneuve d'Ascq*
I should give an example why this is not useful for me. While developing, I use >>inspect to see, what is in any object AND I want the app to proceed. E.g. while creating a report, I want to see the table columns in an inspector. I don't want to halt and debug, I only want to see an inspector. self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect; data: ...; Now, I have to write it like that self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect. self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: self costReportDaysTableColumns ; data: ...; Yes, this is possible but it is not so easigoing as simply put an inspect somewhere. Remarks: 1) I develop a seaside app. I am not interested in the System Window;-) 2) I cant find a selector >>onWindowClosed: 3) >>inspect is a selector which exists in every smalltalk dialect. In every smalltalk dialect I worked with, inspect returned the receiver. It is kind of standard IMHO. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/inspect-returns-iOf-SystemWindow-and-not-receiver-tp46... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
+1 to what Sabine says. Very useful behavior. Phil On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 8:03 AM, Sabine Knöfel <sabine.knoefel@gmail.com>wrote:
I should give an example why this is not useful for me.
While developing, I use >>inspect to see, what is in any object AND I want the app to proceed. E.g. while creating a report, I want to see the table columns in an inspector. I don't want to halt and debug, I only want to see an inspector.
self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect; data: ...;
Now, I have to write it like that
self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect. self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: self costReportDaysTableColumns ; data: ...;
Yes, this is possible but it is not so easigoing as simply put an inspect somewhere.
Remarks: 1) I develop a seaside app. I am not interested in the System Window;-) 2) I cant find a selector >>onWindowClosed: 3) >>inspect is a selector which exists in every smalltalk dialect. In every smalltalk dialect I worked with, inspect returned the receiver. It is kind of standard IMHO.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/inspect-returns-iOf-SystemWindow-and-not-receiver-tp46... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
but halt is really a simple method you can introduce myHalt Object>>myHalt Halt signal. and you are done. Stef On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:58 AM, phil@highoctane.be wrote:
+1 to what Sabine says. Very useful behavior.
Phil
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 8:03 AM, Sabine Knöfel <sabine.knoefel@gmail.com> wrote: I should give an example why this is not useful for me.
While developing, I use >>inspect to see, what is in any object AND I want the app to proceed. E.g. while creating a report, I want to see the table columns in an inspector. I don't want to halt and debug, I only want to see an inspector.
self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect; data: ...;
Now, I have to write it like that
self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect. self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: self costReportDaysTableColumns ; data: ...;
Yes, this is possible but it is not so easigoing as simply put an inspect somewhere.
Remarks: 1) I develop a seaside app. I am not interested in the System Window;-) 2) I cant find a selector >>onWindowClosed: 3) >>inspect is a selector which exists in every smalltalk dialect. In every smalltalk dialect I worked with, inspect returned the receiver. It is kind of standard IMHO.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/inspect-returns-iOf-SystemWindow-and-not-receiver-tp46... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Hi Stef, oh yes I know about >>halt but it is not the same as getting an inspector;-) Don't you agree with me that in this point, Pharo should have the same behaviour as the ohter smalltalk dialects (VisualAge/IBM Smalltalk, VisualWorks, Gemstone)? Greetings Sabine On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 4:38 PM, Stéphane Ducasse [via Smalltalk] <ml-node+s1294792n4692446h21@n4.nabble.com> wrote:
but halt is really a simple method
you can introduce myHalt
Object>>myHalt
Halt signal.
and you are done.
Stef
On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:58 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
+1 to what Sabine says. Very useful behavior.
Phil
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 8:03 AM, Sabine Knöfel <[hidden email]> wrote:
I should give an example why this is not useful for me.
While developing, I use >>inspect to see, what is in any object AND I want the app to proceed. E.g. while creating a report, I want to see the table columns in an inspector. I don't want to halt and debug, I only want to see an inspector.
self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect; data: ...;
Now, I have to write it like that
self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect. self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: self costReportDaysTableColumns ; data: ...;
Yes, this is possible but it is not so easigoing as simply put an inspect somewhere.
Remarks: 1) I develop a seaside app. I am not interested in the System Window;-) 2) I cant find a selector >>onWindowClosed: 3) >>inspect is a selector which exists in every smalltalk dialect. In every smalltalk dialect I worked with, inspect returned the receiver. It is kind of standard IMHO.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/inspect-returns-iOf-SystemWindow-and-not-receiver-tp46... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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On 9 June 2013 08:03, Sabine Knöfel <sabine.knoefel@gmail.com> wrote:
I should give an example why this is not useful for me.
While developing, I use >>inspect to see, what is in any object AND I want the app to proceed. E.g. while creating a report, I want to see the table columns in an inspector. I don't want to halt and debug, I only want to see an inspector.
self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect; data: ...;
Now, I have to write it like that
self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect. self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: self costReportDaysTableColumns ; data: ...;
Yes, this is possible but it is not so easigoing as simply put an inspect somewhere.
you still can use it: self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: (self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect; yourself); data: ...;
Remarks: 1) I develop a seaside app. I am not interested in the System Window;-) 2) I cant find a selector >>onWindowClosed: 3) >>inspect is a selector which exists in every smalltalk dialect. In every smalltalk dialect I worked with, inspect returned the receiver. It is kind of standard IMHO.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/inspect-returns-iOf-SystemWindow-and-not-receiver-tp46... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Hi Igor, thanks! Don't you agree with me that in this point, Pharo should have the same behaviour as the other smalltalk dialects (VisualAge/IBM Smalltalk, VisualWorks, Gemstone)? Greetings Sabine On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Igor Stasenko [via Smalltalk] <ml-node+s1294792n4692470h65@n4.nabble.com> wrote:
On 9 June 2013 08:03, Sabine Knöfel <[hidden email]> wrote:
I should give an example why this is not useful for me.
While developing, I use >>inspect to see, what is in any object AND I want the app to proceed. E.g. while creating a report, I want to see the table columns in an inspector. I don't want to halt and debug, I only want to see an inspector.
self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect; data: ...;
Now, I have to write it like that
self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect. self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: self costReportDaysTableColumns ; data: ...;
Yes, this is possible but it is not so easigoing as simply put an inspect somewhere.
you still can use it:
self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: (self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect; yourself); data: ...;
Remarks: 1) I develop a seaside app. I am not interested in the System Window;-) 2) I cant find a selector >>onWindowClosed: 3) >>inspect is a selector which exists in every smalltalk dialect. In every smalltalk dialect I worked with, inspect returned the receiver. It is kind of standard IMHO.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/inspect-returns-iOf-SystemWindow-and-not-receiver-tp46...
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
________________________________ If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below: http://forum.world.st/inspect-returns-iOf-SystemWindow-and-not-receiver-tp46... To unsubscribe from inspect returns iOf SystemWindow and not receiver, click here. NAML
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On 10 June 2013 10:52, Sabine Knöfel <sabine.knoefel@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Igor,
thanks!
Don't you agree with me that in this point, Pharo should have the same behaviour as the other smalltalk dialects (VisualAge/IBM Smalltalk, VisualWorks, Gemstone)?
i don't have strong opinion on that. for me, this is not a big deal.
Greetings Sabine
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Igor Stasenko [via Smalltalk] <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 9 June 2013 08:03, Sabine Knöfel <[hidden email]> wrote:
I should give an example why this is not useful for me.
While developing, I use >>inspect to see, what is in any object AND I want the app to proceed. E.g. while creating a report, I want to see the table columns in an inspector. I don't want to halt and debug, I only want to see an inspector.
self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect; data: ...;
Now, I have to write it like that
self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect. self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: self costReportDaysTableColumns ; data: ...;
Yes, this is possible but it is not so easigoing as simply put an inspect somewhere.
you still can use it:
self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: (self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect; yourself); data: ...;
Remarks: 1) I develop a seaside app. I am not interested in the System Window;-) 2) I cant find a selector >>onWindowClosed: 3) >>inspect is a selector which exists in every smalltalk dialect. In every smalltalk dialect I worked with, inspect returned the receiver. It is kind of standard IMHO.
-- View this message in context:
http://forum.world.st/inspect-returns-iOf-SystemWindow-and-not-receiver-tp46...
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
________________________________ If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.world.st/inspect-returns-iOf-SystemWindow-and-not-receiver-tp46...
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________________________________ View this message in context: Re: inspect returns iOf SystemWindow and not receiver Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Hi Igor, ok. Everyone has other programming habits.... Greetings Sabine On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Igor Stasenko [via Smalltalk] <ml-node+s1294792n4692589h54@n4.nabble.com> wrote:
On 10 June 2013 10:52, Sabine Knöfel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Igor,
thanks!
Don't you agree with me that in this point, Pharo should have the same behaviour as the other smalltalk dialects (VisualAge/IBM Smalltalk, VisualWorks, Gemstone)?
i don't have strong opinion on that. for me, this is not a big deal.
Greetings Sabine
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Igor Stasenko [via Smalltalk] <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 9 June 2013 08:03, Sabine Knöfel <[hidden email]> wrote:
I should give an example why this is not useful for me.
While developing, I use >>inspect to see, what is in any object AND I want the app to proceed. E.g. while creating a report, I want to see the table columns in an inspector. I don't want to halt and debug, I only want to see an inspector.
self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect; data: ...;
Now, I have to write it like that
self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect. self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: self costReportDaysTableColumns ; data: ...;
Yes, this is possible but it is not so easigoing as simply put an inspect somewhere.
you still can use it:
self currentPage add: (PDFDataTableWithColumnsCaptionElement new captions: (self costReportDaysTableColumns inspect; yourself); data: ...;
Remarks: 1) I develop a seaside app. I am not interested in the System Window;-) 2) I cant find a selector >>onWindowClosed: 3) >>inspect is a selector which exists in every smalltalk dialect. In every smalltalk dialect I worked with, inspect returned the receiver. It is kind of standard IMHO.
-- View this message in context:
http://forum.world.st/inspect-returns-iOf-SystemWindow-and-not-receiver-tp46...
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
________________________________ If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.world.st/inspect-returns-iOf-SystemWindow-and-not-receiver-tp46...
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________________________________ View this message in context: Re: inspect returns iOf SystemWindow and not receiver Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
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On Jun 10, 2013, at 5:07 PM, btc@openinworld.com wrote:
Sabine Knöfel wrote:
Hi Igor,
ok. Everyone has other programming habits....
Greetings Sabine
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Igor Stasenko [via Smalltalk] <ml-node+s1294792n4692589h54@n4.nabble.com> wrote:
On 10 June 2013 10:52, Sabine Knöfel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Igor,
thanks!
Don't you agree with me that in this point, Pharo should have the same behaviour as the other smalltalk dialects (VisualAge/IBM Smalltalk, VisualWorks, Gemstone)?
i don't have strong opinion on that. for me, this is not a big deal.
Breaks the Principal of Least Surprise for those you want to attract from other dialects. They may end up with a strong opinion on it :)
I am not against reverting the inspect change.. but it should be documented well, else this will be changed again in the future. Another thing is that starting from 3.0, I am sure that nobody will ever put "inspect" or "halt" anywhere as they will use meta-links instead⦠Marcus
Am 10.06.13 18:01, schrieb Marcus Denker:
Breaks the Principal of Least Surprise for those you want to attract from other dialects. They may end up with a strong opinion on it :)
I am not against reverting the inspect change.. but it should be documented well, else this will be changed again in the future.
Another thing is that starting from 3.0, I am sure that nobody will ever put "inspect" or "halt" anywhere as they will use meta-links insteadâ¦
hmm. that is probably just 5 minutes away from Pharo's world domination ;-) As long as Pharo is "Smalltalk inspired", people will probably come up with solutions they learned in Smalltalk. I have not yet come to be a frequent Pharo user, but coming from another Smalltalk dialect, I would probably face the same problem as Sabine mentioned it. I am not sure I use inspect in message cascades very often, because I tend to avoid cascades in methods that look or feel as if I may want to inspect preliminary results, so I am probably unlikely to tap into the same trap often. But if I would, I'd be scratching my head and ask myself what the heck this could ever be good for... But I also agree with what you are saying: if newly introduced behavior is changed again, it should be for a good reason and documented well. Otherwise people may get the impression Pharo is immature and instable. And that would be no good - neither for Smalltalk-switchers nor for newborn Smalltalkers. Joachim
On Jun 10, 2013, at 6:56 PM, jtuchel@objektfabrik.de wrote:
Am 10.06.13 18:01, schrieb Marcus Denker:
Breaks the Principal of Least Surprise for those you want to attract from other dialects. They may end up with a strong opinion on it :)
I am not against reverting the inspect change.. but it should be documented well, else this will be changed again in the future.
Another thing is that starting from 3.0, I am sure that nobody will ever put "inspect" or "halt" anywhere as they will use meta-links insteadâ¦
hmm. that is probably just 5 minutes away from Pharo's world domination ;-) As long as Pharo is "Smalltalk inspired", people will probably come up with solutions they learned in Smalltalk. I have not yet come to be a frequent Pharo user, but coming from another Smalltalk dialect, I would probably face the same problem as Sabine mentioned it. I am not sure I use inspect in message cascades very often, because I tend to avoid cascades in methods that look or feel as if I may want to inspect preliminary results, so I am probably unlikely to tap into the same trap often. But if I would, I'd be scratching my head and ask myself what the heck this could ever be good forâ¦
So maybe we can -> add #inspector that returns the tool -> make inspect be like it was before (with documentation). Marcus
yes, I am a head-scratching person, possibly old fashioned :-), coming from other dialects and this is imho the best solution Sabine On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 9:58 AM, Marcus Denker-4 [via Smalltalk] <ml-node+s1294792n4692722h77@n4.nabble.com> wrote:
On Jun 10, 2013, at 6:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
Am 10.06.13 18:01, schrieb Marcus Denker:
Breaks the Principal of Least Surprise for those you want to attract from other dialects. They may end up with a strong opinion on it :)
I am not against reverting the inspect change.. but it should be documented well, else this will be changed again in the future.
Another thing is that starting from 3.0, I am sure that nobody will ever put "inspect" or "halt" anywhere as they will use meta-links insteadâ¦
hmm. that is probably just 5 minutes away from Pharo's world domination ;-) As long as Pharo is "Smalltalk inspired", people will probably come up with solutions they learned in Smalltalk. I have not yet come to be a frequent Pharo user, but coming from another Smalltalk dialect, I would probably face the same problem as Sabine mentioned it. I am not sure I use inspect in message cascades very often, because I tend to avoid cascades in methods that look or feel as if I may want to inspect preliminary results, so I am probably unlikely to tap into the same trap often. But if I would, I'd be scratching my head and ask myself what the heck this could ever be good forâ¦
So maybe we can -> add #inspector that returns the tool -> make inspect be like it was before (with documentation).
Marcus
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+1 as well. Consistent with historical/expected behavior and with info on how to do it 'the other way'. On Jun 11, 2013, at 4:08 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 11 Jun 2013, at 09:57, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:
So maybe we can -> add #inspector that returns the tool -> make inspect be like it was before (with documentation).
+1
Lets not waste any more time on this
---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile
Marcus Denker-4 wrote
So maybe we can -> add #inspector that returns the tool -> make inspect be like it was before (with documentation).
+1. Great idea. Seems best from both viewpoints. ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/inspect-returns-iOf-SystemWindow-and-not-receiver-tp46... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On Jun 8, 2013, at 8:30 PM, Sabine Knöfel <sabine.knoefel@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
while developing my app with seaside, I sometimes use inspect within any statement. I am used from Pharo 1.4 and from other smalltalk dialects, that >>inspect returns the receiver itself. But in Pharo 2.0 it returns an instance of SystemWindow. I dont see any sense in that. It that with intent?
A bug report is here: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/6989/Inspect-should-be-silent Marcus
Hi Marcus, thank you. I can not see the entry because I have no access. Is it possible to grant access for me so that I can, next time, look if there is already a bug entry instead of starting a discussion in the Forum? Greetings Sabine On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Marcus Denker-4 [via Smalltalk] <ml-node+s1294792n4692435h80@n4.nabble.com> wrote:
On Jun 8, 2013, at 8:30 PM, Sabine Knöfel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,
while developing my app with seaside, I sometimes use inspect within any statement. I am used from Pharo 1.4 and from other smalltalk dialects, that >>inspect returns the receiver itself. But in Pharo 2.0 it returns an instance of SystemWindow. I dont see any sense in that. It that with intent?
A bug report is here:
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/6989/Inspect-should-be-silent
Marcus
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On Jun 10, 2013, at 10:51 AM, Sabine Knöfel <sabine.knoefel@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Marcus,
thank you. I can not see the entry because I have no access. Is it possible to grant access for me so that I can, next time, look if there is already a bug entry instead of starting a discussion in the Forum?
I added an account on the tracker for you. Marcus
Thank you Marcus. I see there was a similar discussion in march in FogBuzz/Google. Next time I will look in FogBuzz before starting a diskussion here. Sabine -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/inspect-returns-iOf-SystemWindow-and-not-receiver-tp46... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
participants (11)
-
btc＠openinworld.com -
Clément Bera -
Igor Stasenko -
Johan Fabry -
jtuchel＠objektfabrik.de -
Marcus Denker -
phil＠highoctane.be -
Sabine Knöfel -
Sean P. DeNigris -
Stéphane Ducasse -
Sven Van Caekenberghe