Hello, I am working on a project for my wife. I initially thought I would keep all my data inside Pharo because it is a simple project and Pharo is great at persistence in the image. But as I pursued the project it felt like I was reinventing the database. So I thought why am I considering working so hard to structure my classes and objects in such a way that I am in effect writing my own database. All of this to avoid using a "real" database. Part of my projects goals is to keep this project contained. I do not want to require my wife or whomever I share this with to have to install anything other than copy or unzip the Pharo folder. No PostgreSQL or MongoDB installs. Keep it simple. This is a goal I have for a lot of my ideas. In my 20+ years of computing and Internet. I have seen lots of applications come and go. (and no, I don't have gray hair, even though I have children older than probably half the people here.) Many years ago, my wife and I made tremendous use out of Apple Works and Microsoft Works. Apple at home and for me Microsoft at work. We loved the ease and simplicity we could throw a database together and just do stuff. It was great. In fact on my work PC I still use weekly and sometimes daily a database I wrote in 1994. I am almost at the point that Windows won't run this ancient MSWorks 4 database. I will have to move my data. Of course these tools aren't the greatest. They have significant limitations, but despite the limitations they were very empowering. My wife started to attempt something similar in LibreOffice but LibreOffice wasn't so simple. It was confusing to her. I briefly looked at LibreOffice but I am not convinced that it is the best or right tool for the job. So that sent me on an adventure to implement this in Pharo. In my learning that I don't want to reinvent the database I have initially settled on using SQLite. SQLite meets my requirements above. It is embedded in my Pharo app and only requires including the database file I create. Very portable and easy to install along with anything else in Pharo. SQLite seems like a very good match and complement to Pharo. A trusted, reliable, external persistence that is as simple and portable as is Pharo. Richard Hipp creator of SQLite has several videos describing how he believes SQLite should be used and should not be used. SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk 2014 SouthEast LinuxFest - Richard Hipp - SQLite as an Application File Format https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_ABXwYtuc The videos are inspirational for using SQLite. I like what he says. I encourage watching. I have watched these and others of his including his anti-git video. I am not knowledgeable about the use of git in Pharo, but I would be interested if anybody has considered and knows the pros and cons of using Fossil instead. I know, it wouldn't get us on GitHub. I may be the only one. But that isn't a biggie for me. TL;DW (didn't watch) Use SQLite for Application File Format for persistence instead of a (zipped) pile of files and you get many benefits. Examples in videos as the wrong way, LibreOffice and git. I think using SQLite like this for Pharo would be an excellent match. We gain all the benefits of SQLite, transactions, ACID. In a tool that is nicely (non)licensed, and is used and trusted generally by most all of the software world. For Pharo this buys us an excellent, simple, equally portable persistence. It also buys us persistence that is trusted by people who don't trust the image for their data. This could possible help with people who explore Pharo but aren't comfortable about image only. Now of course it won't help the Emacs or Vim, ... people. I am exploring the idea of using Pharo and SQLite for what I would have previously used Apple/MS Works database for. At first it would be building the app/project for my wife. And during and after that project generalize some things to make a better out of the box solution for like projects. Thoughts, opinions, ideas, wisdom. Any and all appreciated. Thanks. Jimmie
Hi Jimmie, Is this SQlite adaptor you wrote published publicly? I'd definitely like to evaluate this technology for my stack. Thank you, Robet On 10/15/2015 01:58 PM, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello,
I am working on a project for my wife. I initially thought I would keep all my data inside Pharo because it is a simple project and Pharo is great at persistence in the image.
But as I pursued the project it felt like I was reinventing the database. So I thought why am I considering working so hard to structure my classes and objects in such a way that I am in effect writing my own database. All of this to avoid using a "real" database.
Part of my projects goals is to keep this project contained. I do not want to require my wife or whomever I share this with to have to install anything other than copy or unzip the Pharo folder. No PostgreSQL or MongoDB installs. Keep it simple.
This is a goal I have for a lot of my ideas.
In my 20+ years of computing and Internet. I have seen lots of applications come and go. (and no, I don't have gray hair, even though I have children older than probably half the people here.)
Many years ago, my wife and I made tremendous use out of Apple Works and Microsoft Works. Apple at home and for me Microsoft at work. We loved the ease and simplicity we could throw a database together and just do stuff. It was great. In fact on my work PC I still use weekly and sometimes daily a database I wrote in 1994. I am almost at the point that Windows won't run this ancient MSWorks 4 database. I will have to move my data.
Of course these tools aren't the greatest. They have significant limitations, but despite the limitations they were very empowering.
My wife started to attempt something similar in LibreOffice but LibreOffice wasn't so simple. It was confusing to her. I briefly looked at LibreOffice but I am not convinced that it is the best or right tool for the job.
So that sent me on an adventure to implement this in Pharo. In my learning that I don't want to reinvent the database I have initially settled on using SQLite. SQLite meets my requirements above. It is embedded in my Pharo app and only requires including the database file I create. Very portable and easy to install along with anything else in Pharo.
SQLite seems like a very good match and complement to Pharo. A trusted, reliable, external persistence that is as simple and portable as is Pharo.
Richard Hipp creator of SQLite has several videos describing how he believes SQLite should be used and should not be used.
SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk
2014 SouthEast LinuxFest - Richard Hipp - SQLite as an Application File Format https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_ABXwYtuc
The videos are inspirational for using SQLite. I like what he says. I encourage watching. I have watched these and others of his including his anti-git video. I am not knowledgeable about the use of git in Pharo, but I would be interested if anybody has considered and knows the pros and cons of using Fossil instead. I know, it wouldn't get us on GitHub. I may be the only one. But that isn't a biggie for me. TL;DW (didn't watch) Use SQLite for Application File Format for persistence instead of a (zipped) pile of files and you get many benefits. Examples in videos as the wrong way, LibreOffice and git.
I think using SQLite like this for Pharo would be an excellent match. We gain all the benefits of SQLite, transactions, ACID. In a tool that is nicely (non)licensed, and is used and trusted generally by most all of the software world.
For Pharo this buys us an excellent, simple, equally portable persistence. It also buys us persistence that is trusted by people who don't trust the image for their data. This could possible help with people who explore Pharo but aren't comfortable about image only. Now of course it won't help the Emacs or Vim, ... people.
I am exploring the idea of using Pharo and SQLite for what I would have previously used Apple/MS Works database for. At first it would be building the app/project for my wife. And during and after that project generalize some things to make a better out of the box solution for like projects.
Thoughts, opinions, ideas, wisdom. Any and all appreciated.
Thanks.
Jimmie
I haven't used SQLite in Pharo, but I used it in Android. It is a pretty complete database solution, self contained in a single file (and a shared library ;-)). I already posted the slides of the PgCon where Richard Hipp states that SQLite is the replacement of fopen() and not of a whole RDBMS: http://www.pgcon.org/2014/schedule/attachments/319_PGCon2014OpeningKeynote.p... You already have drivers for it here: http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/NBSQLite3 Regards! Esteban A. Maringolo 2015-10-15 15:05 GMT-03:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.withers@gmail.com>:
Hi Jimmie,
Is this SQlite adaptor you wrote published publicly? I'd definitely like to evaluate this technology for my stack.
Thank you, Robet
On 10/15/2015 01:58 PM, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello,
I am working on a project for my wife. I initially thought I would keep all my data inside Pharo because it is a simple project and Pharo is great at persistence in the image.
But as I pursued the project it felt like I was reinventing the database. So I thought why am I considering working so hard to structure my classes and objects in such a way that I am in effect writing my own database. All of this to avoid using a "real" database.
Part of my projects goals is to keep this project contained. I do not want to require my wife or whomever I share this with to have to install anything other than copy or unzip the Pharo folder. No PostgreSQL or MongoDB installs. Keep it simple.
This is a goal I have for a lot of my ideas.
In my 20+ years of computing and Internet. I have seen lots of applications come and go. (and no, I don't have gray hair, even though I have children older than probably half the people here.)
Many years ago, my wife and I made tremendous use out of Apple Works and Microsoft Works. Apple at home and for me Microsoft at work. We loved the ease and simplicity we could throw a database together and just do stuff. It was great. In fact on my work PC I still use weekly and sometimes daily a database I wrote in 1994. I am almost at the point that Windows won't run this ancient MSWorks 4 database. I will have to move my data.
Of course these tools aren't the greatest. They have significant limitations, but despite the limitations they were very empowering.
My wife started to attempt something similar in LibreOffice but LibreOffice wasn't so simple. It was confusing to her. I briefly looked at LibreOffice but I am not convinced that it is the best or right tool for the job.
So that sent me on an adventure to implement this in Pharo. In my learning that I don't want to reinvent the database I have initially settled on using SQLite. SQLite meets my requirements above. It is embedded in my Pharo app and only requires including the database file I create. Very portable and easy to install along with anything else in Pharo.
SQLite seems like a very good match and complement to Pharo. A trusted, reliable, external persistence that is as simple and portable as is Pharo.
Richard Hipp creator of SQLite has several videos describing how he believes SQLite should be used and should not be used.
SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk
2014 SouthEast LinuxFest - Richard Hipp - SQLite as an Application File Format https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_ABXwYtuc
The videos are inspirational for using SQLite. I like what he says. I encourage watching. I have watched these and others of his including his anti-git video. I am not knowledgeable about the use of git in Pharo, but I would be interested if anybody has considered and knows the pros and cons of using Fossil instead. I know, it wouldn't get us on GitHub. I may be the only one. But that isn't a biggie for me. TL;DW (didn't watch) Use SQLite for Application File Format for persistence instead of a (zipped) pile of files and you get many benefits. Examples in videos as the wrong way, LibreOffice and git.
I think using SQLite like this for Pharo would be an excellent match. We gain all the benefits of SQLite, transactions, ACID. In a tool that is nicely (non)licensed, and is used and trusted generally by most all of the software world.
For Pharo this buys us an excellent, simple, equally portable persistence. It also buys us persistence that is trusted by people who don't trust the image for their data. This could possible help with people who explore Pharo but aren't comfortable about image only. Now of course it won't help the Emacs or Vim, ... people.
I am exploring the idea of using Pharo and SQLite for what I would have previously used Apple/MS Works database for. At first it would be building the app/project for my wife. And during and after that project generalize some things to make a better out of the box solution for like projects.
Thoughts, opinions, ideas, wisdom. Any and all appreciated.
Thanks.
Jimmie
Thanks for the reply. When I went to answer Robert, I saw that driver. I will definitely give it a try. I don't find the post with those slides. But I have watched the video. It is a good video. Funny! But I did see the one where you posted about advocacy. But this is why I think that SQLite is a good match for Pharo. Delivering simple, small solutions, portably and easily deployable. Thanks. Jimmie On 10/15/2015 01:22 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote:
I haven't used SQLite in Pharo, but I used it in Android. It is a pretty complete database solution, self contained in a single file (and a shared library ;-)).
I already posted the slides of the PgCon where Richard Hipp states that SQLite is the replacement of fopen() and not of a whole RDBMS: http://www.pgcon.org/2014/schedule/attachments/319_PGCon2014OpeningKeynote.p...
You already have drivers for it here: http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/NBSQLite3
Regards!
Esteban A. Maringolo
2015-10-15 15:05 GMT-03:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.withers@gmail.com>:
Hi Jimmie,
Is this SQlite adaptor you wrote published publicly? I'd definitely like to evaluate this technology for my stack.
Thank you, Robet
On 10/15/2015 01:58 PM, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello,
I am working on a project for my wife. I initially thought I would keep all my data inside Pharo because it is a simple project and Pharo is great at persistence in the image.
But as I pursued the project it felt like I was reinventing the database. So I thought why am I considering working so hard to structure my classes and objects in such a way that I am in effect writing my own database. All of this to avoid using a "real" database.
Part of my projects goals is to keep this project contained. I do not want to require my wife or whomever I share this with to have to install anything other than copy or unzip the Pharo folder. No PostgreSQL or MongoDB installs. Keep it simple.
This is a goal I have for a lot of my ideas.
In my 20+ years of computing and Internet. I have seen lots of applications come and go. (and no, I don't have gray hair, even though I have children older than probably half the people here.)
Many years ago, my wife and I made tremendous use out of Apple Works and Microsoft Works. Apple at home and for me Microsoft at work. We loved the ease and simplicity we could throw a database together and just do stuff. It was great. In fact on my work PC I still use weekly and sometimes daily a database I wrote in 1994. I am almost at the point that Windows won't run this ancient MSWorks 4 database. I will have to move my data.
Of course these tools aren't the greatest. They have significant limitations, but despite the limitations they were very empowering.
My wife started to attempt something similar in LibreOffice but LibreOffice wasn't so simple. It was confusing to her. I briefly looked at LibreOffice but I am not convinced that it is the best or right tool for the job.
So that sent me on an adventure to implement this in Pharo. In my learning that I don't want to reinvent the database I have initially settled on using SQLite. SQLite meets my requirements above. It is embedded in my Pharo app and only requires including the database file I create. Very portable and easy to install along with anything else in Pharo.
SQLite seems like a very good match and complement to Pharo. A trusted, reliable, external persistence that is as simple and portable as is Pharo.
Richard Hipp creator of SQLite has several videos describing how he believes SQLite should be used and should not be used.
SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk
2014 SouthEast LinuxFest - Richard Hipp - SQLite as an Application File Format https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_ABXwYtuc
The videos are inspirational for using SQLite. I like what he says. I encourage watching. I have watched these and others of his including his anti-git video. I am not knowledgeable about the use of git in Pharo, but I would be interested if anybody has considered and knows the pros and cons of using Fossil instead. I know, it wouldn't get us on GitHub. I may be the only one. But that isn't a biggie for me. TL;DW (didn't watch) Use SQLite for Application File Format for persistence instead of a (zipped) pile of files and you get many benefits. Examples in videos as the wrong way, LibreOffice and git.
I think using SQLite like this for Pharo would be an excellent match. We gain all the benefits of SQLite, transactions, ACID. In a tool that is nicely (non)licensed, and is used and trusted generally by most all of the software world.
For Pharo this buys us an excellent, simple, equally portable persistence. It also buys us persistence that is trusted by people who don't trust the image for their data. This could possible help with people who explore Pharo but aren't comfortable about image only. Now of course it won't help the Emacs or Vim, ... people.
I am exploring the idea of using Pharo and SQLite for what I would have previously used Apple/MS Works database for. At first it would be building the app/project for my wife. And during and after that project generalize some things to make a better out of the box solution for like projects.
Thoughts, opinions, ideas, wisdom. Any and all appreciated.
Thanks.
Jimmie
Thanks to both of you for the links. I appreciate you. Robert On 10/15/2015 02:22 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote:
I haven't used SQLite in Pharo, but I used it in Android. It is a pretty complete database solution, self contained in a single file (and a shared library ;-)).
I already posted the slides of the PgCon where Richard Hipp states that SQLite is the replacement of fopen() and not of a whole RDBMS: http://www.pgcon.org/2014/schedule/attachments/319_PGCon2014OpeningKeynote.p...
You already have drivers for it here: http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/NBSQLite3
Regards!
Esteban A. Maringolo
2015-10-15 15:05 GMT-03:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.withers@gmail.com>:
Hi Jimmie,
Is this SQlite adaptor you wrote published publicly? I'd definitely like to evaluate this technology for my stack.
Thank you, Robet
On 10/15/2015 01:58 PM, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello,
I am working on a project for my wife. I initially thought I would keep all my data inside Pharo because it is a simple project and Pharo is great at persistence in the image.
But as I pursued the project it felt like I was reinventing the database. So I thought why am I considering working so hard to structure my classes and objects in such a way that I am in effect writing my own database. All of this to avoid using a "real" database.
Part of my projects goals is to keep this project contained. I do not want to require my wife or whomever I share this with to have to install anything other than copy or unzip the Pharo folder. No PostgreSQL or MongoDB installs. Keep it simple.
This is a goal I have for a lot of my ideas.
In my 20+ years of computing and Internet. I have seen lots of applications come and go. (and no, I don't have gray hair, even though I have children older than probably half the people here.)
Many years ago, my wife and I made tremendous use out of Apple Works and Microsoft Works. Apple at home and for me Microsoft at work. We loved the ease and simplicity we could throw a database together and just do stuff. It was great. In fact on my work PC I still use weekly and sometimes daily a database I wrote in 1994. I am almost at the point that Windows won't run this ancient MSWorks 4 database. I will have to move my data.
Of course these tools aren't the greatest. They have significant limitations, but despite the limitations they were very empowering.
My wife started to attempt something similar in LibreOffice but LibreOffice wasn't so simple. It was confusing to her. I briefly looked at LibreOffice but I am not convinced that it is the best or right tool for the job.
So that sent me on an adventure to implement this in Pharo. In my learning that I don't want to reinvent the database I have initially settled on using SQLite. SQLite meets my requirements above. It is embedded in my Pharo app and only requires including the database file I create. Very portable and easy to install along with anything else in Pharo.
SQLite seems like a very good match and complement to Pharo. A trusted, reliable, external persistence that is as simple and portable as is Pharo.
Richard Hipp creator of SQLite has several videos describing how he believes SQLite should be used and should not be used.
SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk
2014 SouthEast LinuxFest - Richard Hipp - SQLite as an Application File Format https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_ABXwYtuc
The videos are inspirational for using SQLite. I like what he says. I encourage watching. I have watched these and others of his including his anti-git video. I am not knowledgeable about the use of git in Pharo, but I would be interested if anybody has considered and knows the pros and cons of using Fossil instead. I know, it wouldn't get us on GitHub. I may be the only one. But that isn't a biggie for me. TL;DW (didn't watch) Use SQLite for Application File Format for persistence instead of a (zipped) pile of files and you get many benefits. Examples in videos as the wrong way, LibreOffice and git.
I think using SQLite like this for Pharo would be an excellent match. We gain all the benefits of SQLite, transactions, ACID. In a tool that is nicely (non)licensed, and is used and trusted generally by most all of the software world.
For Pharo this buys us an excellent, simple, equally portable persistence. It also buys us persistence that is trusted by people who don't trust the image for their data. This could possible help with people who explore Pharo but aren't comfortable about image only. Now of course it won't help the Emacs or Vim, ... people.
I am exploring the idea of using Pharo and SQLite for what I would have previously used Apple/MS Works database for. At first it would be building the app/project for my wife. And during and after that project generalize some things to make a better out of the box solution for like projects.
Thoughts, opinions, ideas, wisdom. Any and all appreciated.
Thanks.
Jimmie
Hi Jimmie, Your approach seems very good from my point of view. As you know, making directly SQL queries or even writing mappings via a relational mapper are always a pain. So, my comment is that if you are willing to NOT have acid, transactions, and many other of the relational db features, you can use a simple one-file based approach like using plain Fuel, or even SandstoneDB with Fuel. This scales well for small/medium apps. The good thing with this approaches is that you do not need to map classes to tables, and avoid having write queries etc. Pros and cons, as always. Cheers, On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Robert Withers <robert.w.withers@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks to both of you for the links. I appreciate you.
Robert
On 10/15/2015 02:22 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote:
I haven't used SQLite in Pharo, but I used it in Android. It is a pretty complete database solution, self contained in a single file (and a shared library ;-)).
I already posted the slides of the PgCon where Richard Hipp states that SQLite is the replacement of fopen() and not of a whole RDBMS:
http://www.pgcon.org/2014/schedule/attachments/319_PGCon2014OpeningKeynote.p...
You already have drivers for it here: http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/NBSQLite3
Regards!
Esteban A. Maringolo
2015-10-15 15:05 GMT-03:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.withers@gmail.com>:
Hi Jimmie,
Is this SQlite adaptor you wrote published publicly? I'd definitely like to evaluate this technology for my stack.
Thank you, Robet
On 10/15/2015 01:58 PM, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello,
I am working on a project for my wife. I initially thought I would keep all my data inside Pharo because it is a simple project and Pharo is great at persistence in the image.
But as I pursued the project it felt like I was reinventing the database. So I thought why am I considering working so hard to structure my classes and objects in such a way that I am in effect writing my own database. All of this to avoid using a "real" database.
Part of my projects goals is to keep this project contained. I do not want to require my wife or whomever I share this with to have to install anything other than copy or unzip the Pharo folder. No PostgreSQL or MongoDB installs. Keep it simple.
This is a goal I have for a lot of my ideas.
In my 20+ years of computing and Internet. I have seen lots of applications come and go. (and no, I don't have gray hair, even though I have children older than probably half the people here.)
Many years ago, my wife and I made tremendous use out of Apple Works and Microsoft Works. Apple at home and for me Microsoft at work. We loved the ease and simplicity we could throw a database together and just do stuff. It was great. In fact on my work PC I still use weekly and sometimes daily a database I wrote in 1994. I am almost at the point that Windows won't run this ancient MSWorks 4 database. I will have to move my data.
Of course these tools aren't the greatest. They have significant limitations, but despite the limitations they were very empowering.
My wife started to attempt something similar in LibreOffice but LibreOffice wasn't so simple. It was confusing to her. I briefly looked at LibreOffice but I am not convinced that it is the best or right tool for the job.
So that sent me on an adventure to implement this in Pharo. In my learning that I don't want to reinvent the database I have initially settled on using SQLite. SQLite meets my requirements above. It is embedded in my Pharo app and only requires including the database file I create. Very portable and easy to install along with anything else in Pharo.
SQLite seems like a very good match and complement to Pharo. A trusted, reliable, external persistence that is as simple and portable as is Pharo.
Richard Hipp creator of SQLite has several videos describing how he believes SQLite should be used and should not be used.
SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk
2014 SouthEast LinuxFest - Richard Hipp - SQLite as an Application File Format https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_ABXwYtuc
The videos are inspirational for using SQLite. I like what he says. I encourage watching. I have watched these and others of his including his anti-git video. I am not knowledgeable about the use of git in Pharo, but I would be interested if anybody has considered and knows the pros and cons of using Fossil instead. I know, it wouldn't get us on GitHub. I may be the only one. But that isn't a biggie for me. TL;DW (didn't watch) Use SQLite for Application File Format for persistence instead of a (zipped) pile of files and you get many benefits. Examples in videos as the wrong way, LibreOffice and git.
I think using SQLite like this for Pharo would be an excellent match. We gain all the benefits of SQLite, transactions, ACID. In a tool that is nicely (non)licensed, and is used and trusted generally by most all of the software world.
For Pharo this buys us an excellent, simple, equally portable persistence. It also buys us persistence that is trusted by people who don't trust the image for their data. This could possible help with people who explore Pharo but aren't comfortable about image only. Now of course it won't help the Emacs or Vim, ... people.
I am exploring the idea of using Pharo and SQLite for what I would have previously used Apple/MS Works database for. At first it would be building the app/project for my wife. And during and after that project generalize some things to make a better out of the box solution for like projects.
Thoughts, opinions, ideas, wisdom. Any and all appreciated.
Thanks.
Jimmie
-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
Thanks for the reply. My idea at the moment to write the application as the user interface to the SQLite database. I do want all of the rdb features. I also explicitly want something that is usable from other languages or environments. I might someday think LuaJIT to be the direction I want to go or whatever. So I want my data to be usable by most anybody. And I think this view is a good thing for Pharo. I want Pharo to win because it is the best solution. Not because of any particular technology lock-in. As I was thinking about the searches that my wife will want in this recipe database. It seemed to me that there was no easy searches just iterating through collections of objects. Which is why in my initial naive thinking that as I approached the problem it felt that in order to search like we wanted to search it was not a simple solution regardless of keeping it all Pharo and persisting in the image or moving the data to an SQLite database. It just felt like I was going to write database like methods to search over my collections and join and filter data from hither, thither and yon. It seemed like moving to a real database would be a win. I could be wrong and have a misconception of how to properly solve the problem in Pharo/Smalltalk. I am completely open to my naive initial conception being wrong. I am far from expert. As I worked on the project and discussed it with my customer. This is my first project with a customer. The project kept growing in scope and requirements. While I do have a customer, I do have an excellent relationship with my customer. So I do have the liberty to learn and grow and even change directions in this project using the technology of my choosing. :) At the moment I am choosing Pharo and SQLite. I at present do not see that writing an app on top of an SQLite database would be more difficult than doing so in something like Lua. Unless being less OO and more function is a big win. I also somewhat have the thought of doing a test fork of the project in a pure Pharo version. This just to test my present assumptions. Whatever I do will be released with the exception of the recipes. The content is not mine. :) Who knows, my wife might be willing to release also. :) That would test the scaling feature of the project. Most of you all don't need recipes in our quantity. Thanks. Jimmie On 10/15/2015 01:54 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
Hi Jimmie,
Your approach seems very good from my point of view. As you know, making directly SQL queries or even writing mappings via a relational mapper are always a pain. So, my comment is that if you are willing to NOT have acid, transactions, and many other of the relational db features, you can use a simple one-file based approach like using plain Fuel, or even SandstoneDB with Fuel. This scales well for small/medium apps. The good thing with this approaches is that you do not need to map classes to tables, and avoid having write queries etc. Pros and cons, as always.
Cheers,
On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Robert Withers <robert.w.withers@gmail.com <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> wrote:
Thanks to both of you for the links. I appreciate you.
Robert
On 10/15/2015 02:22 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote:
I haven't used SQLite in Pharo, but I used it in Android. It is a pretty complete database solution, self contained in a single file (and a shared library ;-)).
I already posted the slides of the PgCon where Richard Hipp states that SQLite is the replacement of fopen() and not of a whole RDBMS: http://www.pgcon.org/2014/schedule/attachments/319_PGCon2014OpeningKeynote.p...
You already have drivers for it here: http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/NBSQLite3 <http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#%21/%7EPharoExtras/NBSQLite3>
Regards!
Esteban A. Maringolo
2015-10-15 15:05 GMT-03:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.withers@gmail.com <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>:
Hi Jimmie,
Is this SQlite adaptor you wrote published publicly? I'd definitely like to evaluate this technology for my stack.
Thank you, Robet
On 10/15/2015 01:58 PM, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello,
I am working on a project for my wife. I initially thought I would keep all my data inside Pharo because it is a simple project and Pharo is great at persistence in the image.
But as I pursued the project it felt like I was reinventing the database. So I thought why am I considering working so hard to structure my classes and objects in such a way that I am in effect writing my own database. All of this to avoid using a "real" database.
Part of my projects goals is to keep this project contained. I do not want to require my wife or whomever I share this with to have to install anything other than copy or unzip the Pharo folder. No PostgreSQL or MongoDB installs. Keep it simple.
This is a goal I have for a lot of my ideas.
In my 20+ years of computing and Internet. I have seen lots of applications come and go. (and no, I don't have gray hair, even though I have children older than probably half the people here.)
Many years ago, my wife and I made tremendous use out of Apple Works and Microsoft Works. Apple at home and for me Microsoft at work. We loved the ease and simplicity we could throw a database together and just do stuff. It was great. In fact on my work PC I still use weekly and sometimes daily a database I wrote in 1994. I am almost at the point that Windows won't run this ancient MSWorks 4 database. I will have to move my data.
Of course these tools aren't the greatest. They have significant limitations, but despite the limitations they were very empowering.
My wife started to attempt something similar in LibreOffice but LibreOffice wasn't so simple. It was confusing to her. I briefly looked at LibreOffice but I am not convinced that it is the best or right tool for the job.
So that sent me on an adventure to implement this in Pharo. In my learning that I don't want to reinvent the database I have initially settled on using SQLite. SQLite meets my requirements above. It is embedded in my Pharo app and only requires including the database file I create. Very portable and easy to install along with anything else in Pharo.
SQLite seems like a very good match and complement to Pharo. A trusted, reliable, external persistence that is as simple and portable as is Pharo.
Richard Hipp creator of SQLite has several videos describing how he believes SQLite should be used and should not be used.
SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk
2014 SouthEast LinuxFest - Richard Hipp - SQLite as an Application File Format https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_ABXwYtuc
The videos are inspirational for using SQLite. I like what he says. I encourage watching. I have watched these and others of his including his anti-git video. I am not knowledgeable about the use of git in Pharo, but I would be interested if anybody has considered and knows the pros and cons of using Fossil instead. I know, it wouldn't get us on GitHub. I may be the only one. But that isn't a biggie for me. TL;DW (didn't watch) Use SQLite for Application File Format for persistence instead of a (zipped) pile of files and you get many benefits. Examples in videos as the wrong way, LibreOffice and git.
I think using SQLite like this for Pharo would be an excellent match. We gain all the benefits of SQLite, transactions, ACID. In a tool that is nicely (non)licensed, and is used and trusted generally by most all of the software world.
For Pharo this buys us an excellent, simple, equally portable persistence. It also buys us persistence that is trusted by people who don't trust the image for their data. This could possible help with people who explore Pharo but aren't comfortable about image only. Now of course it won't help the Emacs or Vim, ... people.
I am exploring the idea of using Pharo and SQLite for what I would have previously used Apple/MS Works database for. At first it would be building the app/project for my wife. And during and after that project generalize some things to make a better out of the box solution for like projects.
Thoughts, opinions, ideas, wisdom. Any and all appreciated.
Thanks.
Jimmie
-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
Le 15/10/2015 20:54, Mariano Martinez Peck a écrit :
SQL queries or even writing mappings via a relational mapper are always a pain. So, my comment is that if you are willing to NOT have acid, transactions, and many other of the relational db features, you can use a simple one-file based approach like using plain Fuel, or even SandstoneDB with Fuel. This scales well for small/medium apps. The good thing with this approaches is that you do not need to map classes to tables, and avoid having write queries etc. Pros and cons, as always.
Fuel is *great* indeed to persist a tree of objects. However, one of the greatest downside compare to SQLite is the file format is not stable from one version of Fuel to another one. Is it a mandatory limitation? Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu
I would love to have an independent full featured, sold out to SQLite, adapter for Pharo. However, I have not written one. The one I have installed but yet to try is the one that is included in Garage. http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~DBXTalk/Garage But while looking at the link above, I see that it is based upon PharoExtras / NBSQLite3. http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/NBSQLite3 I will have to check on that one and see about going to the source. I was considering if necessary doing my own FFI later. Might not be required. I am not looking for any kind of generic database api to save me from SQL. I am not looking for being able to switch from SQLite to PostgreSQL. I want one that is sold out to being the best way to use SQLite. I don't want an ORM to save me from SQL. I want sold out opinionated software. :) So when I get back to the project, probably next week. I will definitely look at the NBSQLite3. Hopefully one of these two will meet your goals, which may be different than mine. Jimmie On 10/15/2015 01:05 PM, Robert Withers wrote:
Hi Jimmie,
Is this SQlite adaptor you wrote published publicly? I'd definitely like to evaluate this technology for my stack.
Thank you, Robet
On 10/15/2015 01:58 PM, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello,
I am working on a project for my wife. I initially thought I would keep all my data inside Pharo because it is a simple project and Pharo is great at persistence in the image.
But as I pursued the project it felt like I was reinventing the database. So I thought why am I considering working so hard to structure my classes and objects in such a way that I am in effect writing my own database. All of this to avoid using a "real" database.
Part of my projects goals is to keep this project contained. I do not want to require my wife or whomever I share this with to have to install anything other than copy or unzip the Pharo folder. No PostgreSQL or MongoDB installs. Keep it simple.
This is a goal I have for a lot of my ideas.
In my 20+ years of computing and Internet. I have seen lots of applications come and go. (and no, I don't have gray hair, even though I have children older than probably half the people here.)
Many years ago, my wife and I made tremendous use out of Apple Works and Microsoft Works. Apple at home and for me Microsoft at work. We loved the ease and simplicity we could throw a database together and just do stuff. It was great. In fact on my work PC I still use weekly and sometimes daily a database I wrote in 1994. I am almost at the point that Windows won't run this ancient MSWorks 4 database. I will have to move my data.
Of course these tools aren't the greatest. They have significant limitations, but despite the limitations they were very empowering.
My wife started to attempt something similar in LibreOffice but LibreOffice wasn't so simple. It was confusing to her. I briefly looked at LibreOffice but I am not convinced that it is the best or right tool for the job.
So that sent me on an adventure to implement this in Pharo. In my learning that I don't want to reinvent the database I have initially settled on using SQLite. SQLite meets my requirements above. It is embedded in my Pharo app and only requires including the database file I create. Very portable and easy to install along with anything else in Pharo.
SQLite seems like a very good match and complement to Pharo. A trusted, reliable, external persistence that is as simple and portable as is Pharo.
Richard Hipp creator of SQLite has several videos describing how he believes SQLite should be used and should not be used.
SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk
2014 SouthEast LinuxFest - Richard Hipp - SQLite as an Application File Format https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_ABXwYtuc
The videos are inspirational for using SQLite. I like what he says. I encourage watching. I have watched these and others of his including his anti-git video. I am not knowledgeable about the use of git in Pharo, but I would be interested if anybody has considered and knows the pros and cons of using Fossil instead. I know, it wouldn't get us on GitHub. I may be the only one. But that isn't a biggie for me. TL;DW (didn't watch) Use SQLite for Application File Format for persistence instead of a (zipped) pile of files and you get many benefits. Examples in videos as the wrong way, LibreOffice and git.
I think using SQLite like this for Pharo would be an excellent match. We gain all the benefits of SQLite, transactions, ACID. In a tool that is nicely (non)licensed, and is used and trusted generally by most all of the software world.
For Pharo this buys us an excellent, simple, equally portable persistence. It also buys us persistence that is trusted by people who don't trust the image for their data. This could possible help with people who explore Pharo but aren't comfortable about image only. Now of course it won't help the Emacs or Vim, ... people.
I am exploring the idea of using Pharo and SQLite for what I would have previously used Apple/MS Works database for. At first it would be building the app/project for my wife. And during and after that project generalize some things to make a better out of the box solution for like projects.
Thoughts, opinions, ideas, wisdom. Any and all appreciated.
Thanks.
Jimmie
Garage's SQLite driver is a clone, albeit outdated, of the NBSQLite3 codebase. So you better stick with NBSQlite3. Esteban A. Maringolo 2015-10-15 15:31 GMT-03:00 Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin@gmail.com>:
I would love to have an independent full featured, sold out to SQLite, adapter for Pharo. However, I have not written one.
The one I have installed but yet to try is the one that is included in Garage. http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~DBXTalk/Garage
But while looking at the link above, I see that it is based upon PharoExtras / NBSQLite3. http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/NBSQLite3
I will have to check on that one and see about going to the source. I was considering if necessary doing my own FFI later. Might not be required.
I am not looking for any kind of generic database api to save me from SQL. I am not looking for being able to switch from SQLite to PostgreSQL.
I want one that is sold out to being the best way to use SQLite. I don't want an ORM to save me from SQL. I want sold out opinionated software. :)
So when I get back to the project, probably next week. I will definitely look at the NBSQLite3.
Hopefully one of these two will meet your goals, which may be different than mine.
Jimmie
On 10/15/2015 01:05 PM, Robert Withers wrote:
Hi Jimmie,
Is this SQlite adaptor you wrote published publicly? I'd definitely like to evaluate this technology for my stack.
Thank you, Robet
On 10/15/2015 01:58 PM, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello,
I am working on a project for my wife. I initially thought I would keep all my data inside Pharo because it is a simple project and Pharo is great at persistence in the image.
But as I pursued the project it felt like I was reinventing the database. So I thought why am I considering working so hard to structure my classes and objects in such a way that I am in effect writing my own database. All of this to avoid using a "real" database.
Part of my projects goals is to keep this project contained. I do not want to require my wife or whomever I share this with to have to install anything other than copy or unzip the Pharo folder. No PostgreSQL or MongoDB installs. Keep it simple.
This is a goal I have for a lot of my ideas.
In my 20+ years of computing and Internet. I have seen lots of applications come and go. (and no, I don't have gray hair, even though I have children older than probably half the people here.)
Many years ago, my wife and I made tremendous use out of Apple Works and Microsoft Works. Apple at home and for me Microsoft at work. We loved the ease and simplicity we could throw a database together and just do stuff. It was great. In fact on my work PC I still use weekly and sometimes daily a database I wrote in 1994. I am almost at the point that Windows won't run this ancient MSWorks 4 database. I will have to move my data.
Of course these tools aren't the greatest. They have significant limitations, but despite the limitations they were very empowering.
My wife started to attempt something similar in LibreOffice but LibreOffice wasn't so simple. It was confusing to her. I briefly looked at LibreOffice but I am not convinced that it is the best or right tool for the job.
So that sent me on an adventure to implement this in Pharo. In my learning that I don't want to reinvent the database I have initially settled on using SQLite. SQLite meets my requirements above. It is embedded in my Pharo app and only requires including the database file I create. Very portable and easy to install along with anything else in Pharo.
SQLite seems like a very good match and complement to Pharo. A trusted, reliable, external persistence that is as simple and portable as is Pharo.
Richard Hipp creator of SQLite has several videos describing how he believes SQLite should be used and should not be used.
SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk
2014 SouthEast LinuxFest - Richard Hipp - SQLite as an Application File Format https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_ABXwYtuc
The videos are inspirational for using SQLite. I like what he says. I encourage watching. I have watched these and others of his including his anti-git video. I am not knowledgeable about the use of git in Pharo, but I would be interested if anybody has considered and knows the pros and cons of using Fossil instead. I know, it wouldn't get us on GitHub. I may be the only one. But that isn't a biggie for me. TL;DW (didn't watch) Use SQLite for Application File Format for persistence instead of a (zipped) pile of files and you get many benefits. Examples in videos as the wrong way, LibreOffice and git.
I think using SQLite like this for Pharo would be an excellent match. We gain all the benefits of SQLite, transactions, ACID. In a tool that is nicely (non)licensed, and is used and trusted generally by most all of the software world.
For Pharo this buys us an excellent, simple, equally portable persistence. It also buys us persistence that is trusted by people who don't trust the image for their data. This could possible help with people who explore Pharo but aren't comfortable about image only. Now of course it won't help the Emacs or Vim, ... people.
I am exploring the idea of using Pharo and SQLite for what I would have previously used Apple/MS Works database for. At first it would be building the app/project for my wife. And during and after that project generalize some things to make a better out of the box solution for like projects.
Thoughts, opinions, ideas, wisdom. Any and all appreciated.
Thanks.
Jimmie
Hi Jimmie, Nice to see you exploring bridges between Pharo and the external world (that was my message about how I planned to contribute to pharo) and thanks for the reference about the "Git: just say no" video from Hipp (food for my rants with git possessed friends ;-) ). [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghtpJnrdgbo My app uses fossil for storage and exports documents in plain text using STON[2] format and with this combination I can have a remote storage facility which is also pretty portable (just depending on Pharo and a fossil portable binaries). Because I'm working with documents, STON files can have long text inside, which is treated by fossil like binaries and I had not have the time to explore some Sven's suggestions to make it diff friendly. Also I would like some yaml import export on Pharo (maybe via STON). Pharo + Yaml/STON + Fossil could bring us some kind of free schema, human readable, external and distributed storage system that can talk pretty well with the rest of the world. Anyway I just want to point that are more people interested in simple and external persistence using Hipps ideas and products. Maybe fossil + STON can work for you also. [2] https://github.com/svenvc/ston/blob/master/ston-paper.md Keep us posted, Offray On 15/10/15 12:58, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello,
I am working on a project for my wife. I initially thought I would keep all my data inside Pharo because it is a simple project and Pharo is great at persistence in the image.
But as I pursued the project it felt like I was reinventing the database. So I thought why am I considering working so hard to structure my classes and objects in such a way that I am in effect writing my own database. All of this to avoid using a "real" database.
Part of my projects goals is to keep this project contained. I do not want to require my wife or whomever I share this with to have to install anything other than copy or unzip the Pharo folder. No PostgreSQL or MongoDB installs. Keep it simple.
This is a goal I have for a lot of my ideas.
In my 20+ years of computing and Internet. I have seen lots of applications come and go. (and no, I don't have gray hair, even though I have children older than probably half the people here.)
Many years ago, my wife and I made tremendous use out of Apple Works and Microsoft Works. Apple at home and for me Microsoft at work. We loved the ease and simplicity we could throw a database together and just do stuff. It was great. In fact on my work PC I still use weekly and sometimes daily a database I wrote in 1994. I am almost at the point that Windows won't run this ancient MSWorks 4 database. I will have to move my data.
Of course these tools aren't the greatest. They have significant limitations, but despite the limitations they were very empowering.
My wife started to attempt something similar in LibreOffice but LibreOffice wasn't so simple. It was confusing to her. I briefly looked at LibreOffice but I am not convinced that it is the best or right tool for the job.
So that sent me on an adventure to implement this in Pharo. In my learning that I don't want to reinvent the database I have initially settled on using SQLite. SQLite meets my requirements above. It is embedded in my Pharo app and only requires including the database file I create. Very portable and easy to install along with anything else in Pharo.
SQLite seems like a very good match and complement to Pharo. A trusted, reliable, external persistence that is as simple and portable as is Pharo.
Richard Hipp creator of SQLite has several videos describing how he believes SQLite should be used and should not be used.
SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk
2014 SouthEast LinuxFest - Richard Hipp - SQLite as an Application File Format https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_ABXwYtuc
The videos are inspirational for using SQLite. I like what he says. I encourage watching. I have watched these and others of his including his anti-git video. I am not knowledgeable about the use of git in Pharo, but I would be interested if anybody has considered and knows the pros and cons of using Fossil instead. I know, it wouldn't get us on GitHub. I may be the only one. But that isn't a biggie for me. TL;DW (didn't watch) Use SQLite for Application File Format for persistence instead of a (zipped) pile of files and you get many benefits. Examples in videos as the wrong way, LibreOffice and git.
I think using SQLite like this for Pharo would be an excellent match. We gain all the benefits of SQLite, transactions, ACID. In a tool that is nicely (non)licensed, and is used and trusted generally by most all of the software world.
For Pharo this buys us an excellent, simple, equally portable persistence. It also buys us persistence that is trusted by people who don't trust the image for their data. This could possible help with people who explore Pharo but aren't comfortable about image only. Now of course it won't help the Emacs or Vim, ... people.
I am exploring the idea of using Pharo and SQLite for what I would have previously used Apple/MS Works database for. At first it would be building the app/project for my wife. And during and after that project generalize some things to make a better out of the box solution for like projects.
Thoughts, opinions, ideas, wisdom. Any and all appreciated.
Thanks.
Jimmie
Hello Offray, If we didn't have the big push for GitHub. I would love to see a Fossil source code interface for Pharo. If we had this we could potentially replace SmalltalkHub with something more functional almost instantly. This is a big assumption, but possibly correct. But since it comes with a web ui it has a start. I just don't know what would be involved in making it suitable for a community of projects. I just find SmalltalkHub painful. I haven't actually started using Fossil yet. Just watched the videos and began reading the book and drinking the kool-aid. :) I do love how pro-active he is being in suggesting big things to established products or ideas. While I am very pro doing as much stuff in Pharo as possible. ie: not using every tool out there from other languages, Python, Ruby, etc. I do think it is a good thing when it comes to things like data persistence to be ready to use solutions that help people feel comfortable that they could have an exit strategy should Pharo some how crash, go crazy, quit working or simply fade away like many believe Smalltalk already has. It could make some people a little more comfortable in a Pharo solution. He talks about LibreOffice and what benefits it could have if it used SQLite rather than a pile of files for persistency. What if Pharo was the app and SQLite the persistency for the document? We could do our own office suite or whatever. We would have a portable, future proof, application file format that people beyond the Pharo/Smalltalk community could feel good about. Which app of yours are you referring to? Thanks for your input. Jimmie On 10/15/2015 03:49 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
Hi Jimmie,
Nice to see you exploring bridges between Pharo and the external world (that was my message about how I planned to contribute to pharo) and thanks for the reference about the "Git: just say no" video from Hipp (food for my rants with git possessed friends ;-) ).
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghtpJnrdgbo
My app uses fossil for storage and exports documents in plain text using STON[2] format and with this combination I can have a remote storage facility which is also pretty portable (just depending on Pharo and a fossil portable binaries). Because I'm working with documents, STON files can have long text inside, which is treated by fossil like binaries and I had not have the time to explore some Sven's suggestions to make it diff friendly. Also I would like some yaml import export on Pharo (maybe via STON). Pharo + Yaml/STON + Fossil could bring us some kind of free schema, human readable, external and distributed storage system that can talk pretty well with the rest of the world.
Anyway I just want to point that are more people interested in simple and external persistence using Hipps ideas and products. Maybe fossil + STON can work for you also.
[2] https://github.com/svenvc/ston/blob/master/ston-paper.md
Keep us posted,
Offray
On 15/10/15 12:58, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello,
I am working on a project for my wife. I initially thought I would keep all my data inside Pharo because it is a simple project and Pharo is great at persistence in the image.
But as I pursued the project it felt like I was reinventing the database. So I thought why am I considering working so hard to structure my classes and objects in such a way that I am in effect writing my own database. All of this to avoid using a "real" database.
Part of my projects goals is to keep this project contained. I do not want to require my wife or whomever I share this with to have to install anything other than copy or unzip the Pharo folder. No PostgreSQL or MongoDB installs. Keep it simple.
This is a goal I have for a lot of my ideas.
In my 20+ years of computing and Internet. I have seen lots of applications come and go. (and no, I don't have gray hair, even though I have children older than probably half the people here.)
Many years ago, my wife and I made tremendous use out of Apple Works and Microsoft Works. Apple at home and for me Microsoft at work. We loved the ease and simplicity we could throw a database together and just do stuff. It was great. In fact on my work PC I still use weekly and sometimes daily a database I wrote in 1994. I am almost at the point that Windows won't run this ancient MSWorks 4 database. I will have to move my data.
Of course these tools aren't the greatest. They have significant limitations, but despite the limitations they were very empowering.
My wife started to attempt something similar in LibreOffice but LibreOffice wasn't so simple. It was confusing to her. I briefly looked at LibreOffice but I am not convinced that it is the best or right tool for the job.
So that sent me on an adventure to implement this in Pharo. In my learning that I don't want to reinvent the database I have initially settled on using SQLite. SQLite meets my requirements above. It is embedded in my Pharo app and only requires including the database file I create. Very portable and easy to install along with anything else in Pharo.
SQLite seems like a very good match and complement to Pharo. A trusted, reliable, external persistence that is as simple and portable as is Pharo.
Richard Hipp creator of SQLite has several videos describing how he believes SQLite should be used and should not be used.
SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk
2014 SouthEast LinuxFest - Richard Hipp - SQLite as an Application File Format https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_ABXwYtuc
The videos are inspirational for using SQLite. I like what he says. I encourage watching. I have watched these and others of his including his anti-git video. I am not knowledgeable about the use of git in Pharo, but I would be interested if anybody has considered and knows the pros and cons of using Fossil instead. I know, it wouldn't get us on GitHub. I may be the only one. But that isn't a biggie for me. TL;DW (didn't watch) Use SQLite for Application File Format for persistence instead of a (zipped) pile of files and you get many benefits. Examples in videos as the wrong way, LibreOffice and git.
I think using SQLite like this for Pharo would be an excellent match. We gain all the benefits of SQLite, transactions, ACID. In a tool that is nicely (non)licensed, and is used and trusted generally by most all of the software world.
For Pharo this buys us an excellent, simple, equally portable persistence. It also buys us persistence that is trusted by people who don't trust the image for their data. This could possible help with people who explore Pharo but aren't comfortable about image only. Now of course it won't help the Emacs or Vim, ... people.
I am exploring the idea of using Pharo and SQLite for what I would have previously used Apple/MS Works database for. At first it would be building the app/project for my wife. And during and after that project generalize some things to make a better out of the box solution for like projects.
Thoughts, opinions, ideas, wisdom. Any and all appreciated.
Thanks.
Jimmie
Hi Jimmie, My idea is to connect Pharo with the external world, starting from what I need/know, but also I try to not use every single stuff in other languages. My main criteria for selecting from other ecosystems is simplicity. I want to make Pharo compatible with my own history (which is kind of similar to the ones of many non-pharoers), so that bridge can be crossed by others. This is the app I'm refering to: http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Offray/Grafoscopio Is the one I'm making to finally learn Smalltalk with limited time, so lots of rookie code everywhere, but works (mostly for me now). Hopefully I will have more time to learn and improve it. I have some text I have done using it, with open innovation and open/citizen science as themes (only in Spanish) and recently I made a proposal on how to use/extend it (I have been publicizing it in another thread but details are on [1]) [1] https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/data/entries/data-kitchen-frictionle... Cheers, Offray On 15/10/15 17:10, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello Offray,
If we didn't have the big push for GitHub. I would love to see a Fossil source code interface for Pharo. If we had this we could potentially replace SmalltalkHub with something more functional almost instantly. This is a big assumption, but possibly correct. But since it comes with a web ui it has a start. I just don't know what would be involved in making it suitable for a community of projects. I just find SmalltalkHub painful. I haven't actually started using Fossil yet. Just watched the videos and began reading the book and drinking the kool-aid. :)
I do love how pro-active he is being in suggesting big things to established products or ideas.
While I am very pro doing as much stuff in Pharo as possible. ie: not using every tool out there from other languages, Python, Ruby, etc.
I do think it is a good thing when it comes to things like data persistence to be ready to use solutions that help people feel comfortable that they could have an exit strategy should Pharo some how crash, go crazy, quit working or simply fade away like many believe Smalltalk already has. It could make some people a little more comfortable in a Pharo solution.
He talks about LibreOffice and what benefits it could have if it used SQLite rather than a pile of files for persistency. What if Pharo was the app and SQLite the persistency for the document? We could do our own office suite or whatever. We would have a portable, future proof, application file format that people beyond the Pharo/Smalltalk community could feel good about.
Which app of yours are you referring to?
Thanks for your input.
Jimmie
On 10/15/2015 03:49 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
Hi Jimmie,
Nice to see you exploring bridges between Pharo and the external world (that was my message about how I planned to contribute to pharo) and thanks for the reference about the "Git: just say no" video from Hipp (food for my rants with git possessed friends ;-) ).
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghtpJnrdgbo
My app uses fossil for storage and exports documents in plain text using STON[2] format and with this combination I can have a remote storage facility which is also pretty portable (just depending on Pharo and a fossil portable binaries). Because I'm working with documents, STON files can have long text inside, which is treated by fossil like binaries and I had not have the time to explore some Sven's suggestions to make it diff friendly. Also I would like some yaml import export on Pharo (maybe via STON). Pharo + Yaml/STON + Fossil could bring us some kind of free schema, human readable, external and distributed storage system that can talk pretty well with the rest of the world.
Anyway I just want to point that are more people interested in simple and external persistence using Hipps ideas and products. Maybe fossil + STON can work for you also.
[2] https://github.com/svenvc/ston/blob/master/ston-paper.md
Keep us posted,
Offray
On 15/10/15 12:58, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello,
I am working on a project for my wife. I initially thought I would keep all my data inside Pharo because it is a simple project and Pharo is great at persistence in the image.
But as I pursued the project it felt like I was reinventing the database. So I thought why am I considering working so hard to structure my classes and objects in such a way that I am in effect writing my own database. All of this to avoid using a "real" database.
Part of my projects goals is to keep this project contained. I do not want to require my wife or whomever I share this with to have to install anything other than copy or unzip the Pharo folder. No PostgreSQL or MongoDB installs. Keep it simple.
This is a goal I have for a lot of my ideas.
In my 20+ years of computing and Internet. I have seen lots of applications come and go. (and no, I don't have gray hair, even though I have children older than probably half the people here.)
Many years ago, my wife and I made tremendous use out of Apple Works and Microsoft Works. Apple at home and for me Microsoft at work. We loved the ease and simplicity we could throw a database together and just do stuff. It was great. In fact on my work PC I still use weekly and sometimes daily a database I wrote in 1994. I am almost at the point that Windows won't run this ancient MSWorks 4 database. I will have to move my data.
Of course these tools aren't the greatest. They have significant limitations, but despite the limitations they were very empowering.
My wife started to attempt something similar in LibreOffice but LibreOffice wasn't so simple. It was confusing to her. I briefly looked at LibreOffice but I am not convinced that it is the best or right tool for the job.
So that sent me on an adventure to implement this in Pharo. In my learning that I don't want to reinvent the database I have initially settled on using SQLite. SQLite meets my requirements above. It is embedded in my Pharo app and only requires including the database file I create. Very portable and easy to install along with anything else in Pharo.
SQLite seems like a very good match and complement to Pharo. A trusted, reliable, external persistence that is as simple and portable as is Pharo.
Richard Hipp creator of SQLite has several videos describing how he believes SQLite should be used and should not be used.
SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk
2014 SouthEast LinuxFest - Richard Hipp - SQLite as an Application File Format https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_ABXwYtuc
The videos are inspirational for using SQLite. I like what he says. I encourage watching. I have watched these and others of his including his anti-git video. I am not knowledgeable about the use of git in Pharo, but I would be interested if anybody has considered and knows the pros and cons of using Fossil instead. I know, it wouldn't get us on GitHub. I may be the only one. But that isn't a biggie for me. TL;DW (didn't watch) Use SQLite for Application File Format for persistence instead of a (zipped) pile of files and you get many benefits. Examples in videos as the wrong way, LibreOffice and git.
I think using SQLite like this for Pharo would be an excellent match. We gain all the benefits of SQLite, transactions, ACID. In a tool that is nicely (non)licensed, and is used and trusted generally by most all of the software world.
For Pharo this buys us an excellent, simple, equally portable persistence. It also buys us persistence that is trusted by people who don't trust the image for their data. This could possible help with people who explore Pharo but aren't comfortable about image only. Now of course it won't help the Emacs or Vim, ... people.
I am exploring the idea of using Pharo and SQLite for what I would have previously used Apple/MS Works database for. At first it would be building the app/project for my wife. And during and after that project generalize some things to make a better out of the box solution for like projects.
Thoughts, opinions, ideas, wisdom. Any and all appreciated.
Thanks.
Jimmie
Okay, I didn't know if you were referring to Grafoscopio or not. I did not know it would be using Fossil for storage. I downloaded and will explore next week. Thanks. Jimmie On 10/15/2015 05:37 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
Hi Jimmie,
My idea is to connect Pharo with the external world, starting from what I need/know, but also I try to not use every single stuff in other languages. My main criteria for selecting from other ecosystems is simplicity. I want to make Pharo compatible with my own history (which is kind of similar to the ones of many non-pharoers), so that bridge can be crossed by others.
This is the app I'm refering to:
http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Offray/Grafoscopio
Is the one I'm making to finally learn Smalltalk with limited time, so lots of rookie code everywhere, but works (mostly for me now). Hopefully I will have more time to learn and improve it. I have some text I have done using it, with open innovation and open/citizen science as themes (only in Spanish) and recently I made a proposal on how to use/extend it (I have been publicizing it in another thread but details are on [1])
[1] https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/data/entries/data-kitchen-frictionle...
Cheers,
Offray
On 15/10/15 17:10, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello Offray,
If we didn't have the big push for GitHub. I would love to see a Fossil source code interface for Pharo. If we had this we could potentially replace SmalltalkHub with something more functional almost instantly. This is a big assumption, but possibly correct. But since it comes with a web ui it has a start. I just don't know what would be involved in making it suitable for a community of projects. I just find SmalltalkHub painful. I haven't actually started using Fossil yet. Just watched the videos and began reading the book and drinking the kool-aid. :)
I do love how pro-active he is being in suggesting big things to established products or ideas.
While I am very pro doing as much stuff in Pharo as possible. ie: not using every tool out there from other languages, Python, Ruby, etc.
I do think it is a good thing when it comes to things like data persistence to be ready to use solutions that help people feel comfortable that they could have an exit strategy should Pharo some how crash, go crazy, quit working or simply fade away like many believe Smalltalk already has. It could make some people a little more comfortable in a Pharo solution.
He talks about LibreOffice and what benefits it could have if it used SQLite rather than a pile of files for persistency. What if Pharo was the app and SQLite the persistency for the document? We could do our own office suite or whatever. We would have a portable, future proof, application file format that people beyond the Pharo/Smalltalk community could feel good about.
Which app of yours are you referring to?
Thanks for your input.
Jimmie
On 10/15/2015 03:49 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
Hi Jimmie,
Nice to see you exploring bridges between Pharo and the external world (that was my message about how I planned to contribute to pharo) and thanks for the reference about the "Git: just say no" video from Hipp (food for my rants with git possessed friends ;-) ).
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghtpJnrdgbo
My app uses fossil for storage and exports documents in plain text using STON[2] format and with this combination I can have a remote storage facility which is also pretty portable (just depending on Pharo and a fossil portable binaries). Because I'm working with documents, STON files can have long text inside, which is treated by fossil like binaries and I had not have the time to explore some Sven's suggestions to make it diff friendly. Also I would like some yaml import export on Pharo (maybe via STON). Pharo + Yaml/STON + Fossil could bring us some kind of free schema, human readable, external and distributed storage system that can talk pretty well with the rest of the world.
Anyway I just want to point that are more people interested in simple and external persistence using Hipps ideas and products. Maybe fossil + STON can work for you also.
[2] https://github.com/svenvc/ston/blob/master/ston-paper.md
Keep us posted,
Offray
On 15/10/15 12:58, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello,
I am working on a project for my wife. I initially thought I would keep all my data inside Pharo because it is a simple project and Pharo is great at persistence in the image.
But as I pursued the project it felt like I was reinventing the database. So I thought why am I considering working so hard to structure my classes and objects in such a way that I am in effect writing my own database. All of this to avoid using a "real" database.
Part of my projects goals is to keep this project contained. I do not want to require my wife or whomever I share this with to have to install anything other than copy or unzip the Pharo folder. No PostgreSQL or MongoDB installs. Keep it simple.
This is a goal I have for a lot of my ideas.
In my 20+ years of computing and Internet. I have seen lots of applications come and go. (and no, I don't have gray hair, even though I have children older than probably half the people here.)
Many years ago, my wife and I made tremendous use out of Apple Works and Microsoft Works. Apple at home and for me Microsoft at work. We loved the ease and simplicity we could throw a database together and just do stuff. It was great. In fact on my work PC I still use weekly and sometimes daily a database I wrote in 1994. I am almost at the point that Windows won't run this ancient MSWorks 4 database. I will have to move my data.
Of course these tools aren't the greatest. They have significant limitations, but despite the limitations they were very empowering.
My wife started to attempt something similar in LibreOffice but LibreOffice wasn't so simple. It was confusing to her. I briefly looked at LibreOffice but I am not convinced that it is the best or right tool for the job.
So that sent me on an adventure to implement this in Pharo. In my learning that I don't want to reinvent the database I have initially settled on using SQLite. SQLite meets my requirements above. It is embedded in my Pharo app and only requires including the database file I create. Very portable and easy to install along with anything else in Pharo.
SQLite seems like a very good match and complement to Pharo. A trusted, reliable, external persistence that is as simple and portable as is Pharo.
Richard Hipp creator of SQLite has several videos describing how he believes SQLite should be used and should not be used.
SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk
2014 SouthEast LinuxFest - Richard Hipp - SQLite as an Application File Format https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_ABXwYtuc
The videos are inspirational for using SQLite. I like what he says. I encourage watching. I have watched these and others of his including his anti-git video. I am not knowledgeable about the use of git in Pharo, but I would be interested if anybody has considered and knows the pros and cons of using Fossil instead. I know, it wouldn't get us on GitHub. I may be the only one. But that isn't a biggie for me. TL;DW (didn't watch) Use SQLite for Application File Format for persistence instead of a (zipped) pile of files and you get many benefits. Examples in videos as the wrong way, LibreOffice and git.
I think using SQLite like this for Pharo would be an excellent match. We gain all the benefits of SQLite, transactions, ACID. In a tool that is nicely (non)licensed, and is used and trusted generally by most all of the software world.
For Pharo this buys us an excellent, simple, equally portable persistence. It also buys us persistence that is trusted by people who don't trust the image for their data. This could possible help with people who explore Pharo but aren't comfortable about image only. Now of course it won't help the Emacs or Vim, ... people.
I am exploring the idea of using Pharo and SQLite for what I would have previously used Apple/MS Works database for. At first it would be building the app/project for my wife. And during and after that project generalize some things to make a better out of the box solution for like projects.
Thoughts, opinions, ideas, wisdom. Any and all appreciated.
Thanks.
Jimmie
Thanks. Any code review or comments are welcomed. No interface now between fossil and grafoscopio. I just put all my STON files there, but STON + fossil is a combination you could consider also. Cheers, Offray On 15/10/15 23:00, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Okay, I didn't know if you were referring to Grafoscopio or not. I did not know it would be using Fossil for storage.
I downloaded and will explore next week.
Thanks.
Jimmie
On 10/15/2015 05:37 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
Hi Jimmie,
My idea is to connect Pharo with the external world, starting from what I need/know, but also I try to not use every single stuff in other languages. My main criteria for selecting from other ecosystems is simplicity. I want to make Pharo compatible with my own history (which is kind of similar to the ones of many non-pharoers), so that bridge can be crossed by others.
This is the app I'm refering to:
http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Offray/Grafoscopio
Is the one I'm making to finally learn Smalltalk with limited time, so lots of rookie code everywhere, but works (mostly for me now). Hopefully I will have more time to learn and improve it. I have some text I have done using it, with open innovation and open/citizen science as themes (only in Spanish) and recently I made a proposal on how to use/extend it (I have been publicizing it in another thread but details are on [1])
[1] https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/data/entries/data-kitchen-frictionle...
Cheers,
Offray
On 15/10/15 17:10, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello Offray,
If we didn't have the big push for GitHub. I would love to see a Fossil source code interface for Pharo. If we had this we could potentially replace SmalltalkHub with something more functional almost instantly. This is a big assumption, but possibly correct. But since it comes with a web ui it has a start. I just don't know what would be involved in making it suitable for a community of projects. I just find SmalltalkHub painful. I haven't actually started using Fossil yet. Just watched the videos and began reading the book and drinking the kool-aid. :)
I do love how pro-active he is being in suggesting big things to established products or ideas.
While I am very pro doing as much stuff in Pharo as possible. ie: not using every tool out there from other languages, Python, Ruby, etc.
I do think it is a good thing when it comes to things like data persistence to be ready to use solutions that help people feel comfortable that they could have an exit strategy should Pharo some how crash, go crazy, quit working or simply fade away like many believe Smalltalk already has. It could make some people a little more comfortable in a Pharo solution.
He talks about LibreOffice and what benefits it could have if it used SQLite rather than a pile of files for persistency. What if Pharo was the app and SQLite the persistency for the document? We could do our own office suite or whatever. We would have a portable, future proof, application file format that people beyond the Pharo/Smalltalk community could feel good about.
Which app of yours are you referring to?
Thanks for your input.
Jimmie
On 10/15/2015 03:49 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
Hi Jimmie,
Nice to see you exploring bridges between Pharo and the external world (that was my message about how I planned to contribute to pharo) and thanks for the reference about the "Git: just say no" video from Hipp (food for my rants with git possessed friends ;-) ).
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghtpJnrdgbo
My app uses fossil for storage and exports documents in plain text using STON[2] format and with this combination I can have a remote storage facility which is also pretty portable (just depending on Pharo and a fossil portable binaries). Because I'm working with documents, STON files can have long text inside, which is treated by fossil like binaries and I had not have the time to explore some Sven's suggestions to make it diff friendly. Also I would like some yaml import export on Pharo (maybe via STON). Pharo + Yaml/STON + Fossil could bring us some kind of free schema, human readable, external and distributed storage system that can talk pretty well with the rest of the world.
Anyway I just want to point that are more people interested in simple and external persistence using Hipps ideas and products. Maybe fossil + STON can work for you also.
[2] https://github.com/svenvc/ston/blob/master/ston-paper.md
Keep us posted,
Offray
On 15/10/15 12:58, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello,
I am working on a project for my wife. I initially thought I would keep all my data inside Pharo because it is a simple project and Pharo is great at persistence in the image.
But as I pursued the project it felt like I was reinventing the database. So I thought why am I considering working so hard to structure my classes and objects in such a way that I am in effect writing my own database. All of this to avoid using a "real" database.
Part of my projects goals is to keep this project contained. I do not want to require my wife or whomever I share this with to have to install anything other than copy or unzip the Pharo folder. No PostgreSQL or MongoDB installs. Keep it simple.
This is a goal I have for a lot of my ideas.
In my 20+ years of computing and Internet. I have seen lots of applications come and go. (and no, I don't have gray hair, even though I have children older than probably half the people here.)
Many years ago, my wife and I made tremendous use out of Apple Works and Microsoft Works. Apple at home and for me Microsoft at work. We loved the ease and simplicity we could throw a database together and just do stuff. It was great. In fact on my work PC I still use weekly and sometimes daily a database I wrote in 1994. I am almost at the point that Windows won't run this ancient MSWorks 4 database. I will have to move my data.
Of course these tools aren't the greatest. They have significant limitations, but despite the limitations they were very empowering.
My wife started to attempt something similar in LibreOffice but LibreOffice wasn't so simple. It was confusing to her. I briefly looked at LibreOffice but I am not convinced that it is the best or right tool for the job.
So that sent me on an adventure to implement this in Pharo. In my learning that I don't want to reinvent the database I have initially settled on using SQLite. SQLite meets my requirements above. It is embedded in my Pharo app and only requires including the database file I create. Very portable and easy to install along with anything else in Pharo.
SQLite seems like a very good match and complement to Pharo. A trusted, reliable, external persistence that is as simple and portable as is Pharo.
Richard Hipp creator of SQLite has several videos describing how he believes SQLite should be used and should not be used.
SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk
2014 SouthEast LinuxFest - Richard Hipp - SQLite as an Application File Format https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_ABXwYtuc
The videos are inspirational for using SQLite. I like what he says. I encourage watching. I have watched these and others of his including his anti-git video. I am not knowledgeable about the use of git in Pharo, but I would be interested if anybody has considered and knows the pros and cons of using Fossil instead. I know, it wouldn't get us on GitHub. I may be the only one. But that isn't a biggie for me. TL;DW (didn't watch) Use SQLite for Application File Format for persistence instead of a (zipped) pile of files and you get many benefits. Examples in videos as the wrong way, LibreOffice and git.
I think using SQLite like this for Pharo would be an excellent match. We gain all the benefits of SQLite, transactions, ACID. In a tool that is nicely (non)licensed, and is used and trusted generally by most all of the software world.
For Pharo this buys us an excellent, simple, equally portable persistence. It also buys us persistence that is trusted by people who don't trust the image for their data. This could possible help with people who explore Pharo but aren't comfortable about image only. Now of course it won't help the Emacs or Vim, ... people.
I am exploring the idea of using Pharo and SQLite for what I would have previously used Apple/MS Works database for. At first it would be building the app/project for my wife. And during and after that project generalize some things to make a better out of the box solution for like projects.
Thoughts, opinions, ideas, wisdom. Any and all appreciated.
Thanks.
Jimmie
participants (6)
-
Esteban A. Maringolo -
Hilaire -
Jimmie Houchin -
Mariano Martinez Peck -
Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas -
Robert Withers