Zoomable & Infinitely scrollable PasteupMorph
I need to create such a beast. What is my best bet to build on top of? I see the GT playground seems to have something like this for the Roassal previews... ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Zoomable-Infinitely-scrollable-PasteupMorph-tp4778229.... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Sean P. DeNigris wrote
I see the GT playground seems to have something like this for the Roassal previews...
Although digging a bit, I see that the sub-objects are not true Morphs, so it seems that particular approach is not applicable... ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Zoomable-Infinitely-scrollable-PasteupMorph-tp4778229p... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Hi! Can you describe a bit more what you need? In Roassal, you do not have submorph, but do you really need them? Alexandre
Le 15-09-2014 à 20:18, "Sean P. DeNigris" <sean@clipperadams.com> a écrit :
Sean P. DeNigris wrote
I see the GT playground seems to have something like this for the Roassal previews...
Although digging a bit, I see that the sub-objects are not true Morphs, so it seems that particular approach is not applicable...
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Zoomable-Infinitely-scrollable-PasteupMorph-tp4778229p... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On Sep 15, 2014, at 9:54 PM, "abergel [via Smalltalk]" <ml-node+s1294792n4778237h35@n4.nabble.com> wrote:
Can you describe a bit more what you need? In Roassal, you do not have submorph, but do you really need them? Yes, I want to create a Self-like world that is also zoomable, so you could say the whole purpose is to have submorphs ;)
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Zoomable-Infinitely-scrollable-PasteupMorph-tp4778229p... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Interesting thought from a CAD drawing world, one does this all the time.. Basic morph level zooms as a contained sub morphs to some extent could be possible as proof of concept. I am sure it will be lot more involved beyond a point to make everything contained zoomable, text editor: text / image , other compositions , layouts being honored properly.. I am not aware of Self zoom.. need to check on it. On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 4:43 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean@clipperadams.com> wrote:
On Sep 15, 2014, at 9:54 PM, "abergel [via Smalltalk]" <[hidden email] <http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=4778292&i=0>> wrote:
Can you describe a bit more what you need? In Roassal, you do not have submorph, but do you really need them? Yes, I want to create a Self-like world that is also zoomable, so you could say the whole purpose is to have submorphs ;) Cheers, Sean
------------------------------ View this message in context: Re: Zoomable & Infinitely scrollable PasteupMorph <http://forum.world.st/Zoomable-Infinitely-scrollable-PasteupMorph-tp4778229p...>
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On Sep 16, 2014, at 7:59 AM, "S Krish [via Smalltalk]" <ml-node+s1294792n4778316h84@n4.nabble.com> wrote:
I am sure it will be lot more involved beyond a point to make everything contained zoomable, text editor: text / image , other compositions , layouts being honored properly.. Yes I assume that text is where things would get complicated
I am not aware of Self zoom.. need to check on it. Self doesn't zoom, but it scrolls infinitely.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Zoomable-Infinitely-scrollable-PasteupMorph-tp4778229p... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
For infinitely zoomable interface, an old body of work and research on the possibilities is Pad++ [http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/pad++/] . Parcplace did some stuff too. Squeak seemed to have something at one point. Thierry 2014-09-16 15:09 GMT+02:00 Sean P. DeNigris <sean@clipperadams.com>:
On Sep 16, 2014, at 7:59 AM, "S Krish [via Smalltalk]" <[hidden email] <http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=4778347&i=0>> wrote:
I am sure it will be lot more involved beyond a point to make everything contained zoomable, text editor: text / image , other compositions , layouts being honored properly.. Yes I assume that text is where things would get complicated
I am not aware of Self zoom.. need to check on it. Self doesn't zoom, but it scrolls infinitely. Cheers, Sean
------------------------------ View this message in context: Re: Zoomable & Infinitely scrollable PasteupMorph <http://forum.world.st/Zoomable-Infinitely-scrollable-PasteupMorph-tp4778229p...> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html> at Nabble.com.
In the word âsubmorphâ there are two important parts. âsubâ and âmorphâ. Roassal support subelements, but only one morph is around, the trachel morph that contains all the drawing. Why staying in Morphic? Morphic does not scale well, does not have layout, and morphs are hardly composable with other morphs :-) Cheers, Alexandre On Sep 16, 2014, at 7:13 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean@clipperadams.com> wrote:
On Sep 15, 2014, at 9:54 PM, "abergel [via Smalltalk]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Can you describe a bit more what you need? In Roassal, you do not have submorph, but do you really need them? Yes, I want to create a Self-like world that is also zoomable, so you could say the whole purpose is to have submorphs ;) Cheers, Sean
View this message in context: Re: Zoomable & Infinitely scrollable PasteupMorph Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Sep 16, 2014, at 12:08 PM, "abergel [via Smalltalk]" <ml-node+s1294792n4778404h12@n4.nabble.com> wrote:
Why staying in Morphic? I want a "morph" with all the existing capabilities of a WorldMorph, that also has zooming and infinite scrolling. Is this easily possible via Roassal/Trachel?
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Zoomable-Infinitely-scrollable-PasteupMorph-tp4778229p... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Here is an example: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | v | v := RTView new. v @ RTZoomableView. v add: (RTLabel new elementOn: 'Scroll your mouse wheel while hovering cursor over the view to zoom it'). v -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=700319393387994&set=vb.340543479365589&... Zooming is not infinite here. There is nothing that prevent us from doing it. It is just we have not faced any need. What would be a simple and compelling example of infinite zooming? This would be fun to implement. Each element should have a depth right? And zooming is actually moving the camera in and out? Cheers, Alexandre On Sep 16, 2014, at 12:13 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean@clipperadams.com> wrote:
On Sep 16, 2014, at 12:08 PM, "abergel [via Smalltalk]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Why staying in Morphic? I want a "morph" with all the existing capabilities of a WorldMorph, that also has zooming and infinite scrolling. Is this easily possible via Roassal/Trachel? Cheers, Sean
View this message in context: Re: Zoomable & Infinitely scrollable PasteupMorph Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Sep 16, 2014, at 12:20 PM, "abergel [via Smalltalk]" <ml-node+s1294792n4778407h5@n4.nabble.com> wrote:
Zooming is not infinite here Zooming wouldn't need to be, only scrolling e.g. an infinitely large world viewed through a small viewport
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Zoomable-Infinitely-scrollable-PasteupMorph-tp4778229p... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Hi. Do you think Roassal can replace Morphic at all? 2014-09-16 20:07 GMT+04:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>:
In the word âsubmorphâ there are two important parts. âsubâ and âmorphâ. Roassal support subelements, but only one morph is around, the trachel morph that contains all the drawing. Why staying in Morphic? Morphic does not scale well, does not have layout, and morphs are hardly composable with other morphs :-)
Cheers, Alexandre
On Sep 16, 2014, at 7:13 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean@clipperadams.com> wrote:
On Sep 15, 2014, at 9:54 PM, "abergel [via Smalltalk]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Can you describe a bit more what you need? In Roassal, you do not have submorph, but do you really need them? Yes, I want to create a Self-like world that is also zoomable, so you could say the whole purpose is to have submorphs ;) Cheers, Sean
View this message in context: Re: Zoomable & Infinitely scrollable PasteupMorph Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
Yes it can. But Roassal is not made to replace Morphic. In my opinion, Morphic is not simply about having graphic elements answering events, as Roassal does. Morphic provides ways to build sophisticated UI (even if Morphic behaves poorly in comparison with state-of-the-art UI frameworks). Roassal is made to visualize and interact with data. As it is defined today, Roassal is not made to build sophisticated UI. Cheers, Alexandre On Sep 16, 2014, at 10:30 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you think Roassal can replace Morphic at all?
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
Ah one thing with roassal: Please honor the global keymappings and morph local ones. TRMorph swallows them due to the key press related methods which hijack them all. Once a TRMorph is active is feels weird. I love TRMorph and animations. Very nice code. Phil Le 18 sept. 2014 05:46, "Alexandre Bergel" <alexandre.bergel@me.com> a écrit :
Yes it can. But Roassal is not made to replace Morphic. In my opinion, Morphic is not simply about having graphic elements answering events, as Roassal does. Morphic provides ways to build sophisticated UI (even if Morphic behaves poorly in comparison with state-of-the-art UI frameworks). Roassal is made to visualize and interact with data.
As it is defined today, Roassal is not made to build sophisticated UI.
Cheers, Alexandre
On Sep 16, 2014, at 10:30 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you think Roassal can replace Morphic at all?
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
Ah one thing with roassal:
Please honor the global keymappings and morph local ones.
TRMorph swallows them due to the key press related methods which hijack them all.
Is there another keystroke than cmd-w ?
Once a TRMorph is active is feels weird.
I love TRMorph and animations. Very nice code.
Thanks! Alexandre
Le 18 sept. 2014 05:46, "Alexandre Bergel" <alexandre.bergel@me.com> a écrit : Yes it can. But Roassal is not made to replace Morphic. In my opinion, Morphic is not simply about having graphic elements answering events, as Roassal does. Morphic provides ways to build sophisticated UI (even if Morphic behaves poorly in comparison with state-of-the-art UI frameworks). Roassal is made to visualize and interact with data.
As it is defined today, Roassal is not made to build sophisticated UI.
Cheers, Alexandre
On Sep 16, 2014, at 10:30 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you think Roassal can replace Morphic at all?
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
Sean, any news on the topic? -- Best regards, Dennis Schetinin 2014-09-18 9:20 GMT+04:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>:
Ah one thing with roassal:
Please honor the global keymappings and morph local ones.
TRMorph swallows them due to the key press related methods which hijack them all.
Is there another keystroke than cmd-w ?
Once a TRMorph is active is feels weird.
I love TRMorph and animations. Very nice code.
Thanks!
Alexandre
Le 18 sept. 2014 05:46, "Alexandre Bergel" <alexandre.bergel@me.com> a
écrit :
Yes it can. But Roassal is not made to replace Morphic. In my opinion, Morphic is not simply about having graphic elements answering events, as Roassal does. Morphic provides ways to build sophisticated UI (even if Morphic behaves poorly in comparison with state-of-the-art UI frameworks). Roassal is made to visualize and interact with data.
As it is defined today, Roassal is not made to build sophisticated UI.
Cheers, Alexandre
On Sep 16, 2014, at 10:30 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you think Roassal can replace Morphic at all?
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
I gave up on zoomability (with the idea to revisit after Athens is integrated), but I hacked together an infinitely scrollable world, called ScrollableWorldMorph, which is in use in my LivingCode IDE prototype described (with loading instructions) at http://forum.world.st/Clickable-class-side-example-and-initialize-methods-in... If you have any questions about LivingCode specifically, the conversation was moved to http://forum.world.st/LivingCode-was-Clickable-class-side-example-and-initia... HTH ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Zoomable-Infinitely-scrollable-PasteupMorph-tp4778229p... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Thanks, very interesting! -- Best regards, Dennis Schetinin 2014-10-29 16:31 GMT+04:00 Sean P. DeNigris <sean@clipperadams.com>:
I gave up on zoomability (with the idea to revisit after Athens is integrated), but I hacked together an infinitely scrollable world, called ScrollableWorldMorph, which is in use in my LivingCode IDE prototype described (with loading instructions) at
http://forum.world.st/Clickable-class-side-example-and-initialize-methods-in...
If you have any questions about LivingCode specifically, the conversation was moved to
http://forum.world.st/LivingCode-was-Clickable-class-side-example-and-initia...
HTH
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Zoomable-Infinitely-scrollable-PasteupMorph-tp4778229p... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
I gave up on zoomability (with the idea to revisit after Athens is integrated),
Athens is integrated. Now if the community does not help redefining the drawnOn: methods using athens then it will not happen. Stef
but I hacked together an infinitely scrollable world, called ScrollableWorldMorph, which is in use in my LivingCode IDE prototype described (with loading instructions) at http://forum.world.st/Clickable-class-side-example-and-initialize-methods-in...
If you have any questions about LivingCode specifically, the conversation was moved to http://forum.world.st/LivingCode-was-Clickable-class-side-example-and-initia...
HTH
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Zoomable-Infinitely-scrollable-PasteupMorph-tp4778229p... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Le 02/11/2014 15:15, stepharo a écrit :
I gave up on zoomability (with the idea to revisit after Athens is integrated),
Athens is integrated. Now if the community does not help redefining the drawnOn: methods using athens then it will not happen.
And, speaking of infinite zoomability, you have a few surprises waiting for you in Athens :( (some are from Athens design, others may be linked to Cairo). Thierry
2014-11-02 15:22 GMT+01:00 Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com>:
Le 02/11/2014 15:15, stepharo a écrit :
I gave up on zoomability (with the idea to revisit after Athens is
integrated),
Athens is integrated. Now if the community does not help redefining the drawnOn: methods using athens then it will not happen.
And, speaking of infinite zoomability, you have a few surprises waiting for you in Athens :( (some are from Athens design, others may be linked to Cairo).
? What exactly?
Thierry
I dont get why we need zoomable and infinitable scrollable pasteupmorph, athens already can do this, scale things and pan things to infinitive and beyond , you apply morphic and voila. On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 5:29 PM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess@web.de> wrote:
2014-11-02 15:22 GMT+01:00 Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com>:
Le 02/11/2014 15:15, stepharo a écrit :
I gave up on zoomability (with the idea to revisit after Athens is
integrated),
Athens is integrated. Now if the community does not help redefining the drawnOn: methods using athens then it will not happen.
And, speaking of infinite zoomability, you have a few surprises waiting for you in Athens :( (some are from Athens design, others may be linked to Cairo).
? What exactly?
Thierry
kilon.alios wrote
I dont get why we need zoomable and infinitable scrollable pasteupmorph,
I need an IDE that does not cram my self expression into a multi-paned browser. PasteUpMorph is an implementation detail that I'd be happy to upgrade if there's something better. ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Zoomable-Infinitely-scrollable-PasteupMorph-tp4778229p... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Yes I understand this already, but I assume you mean something that already works with morphs which something I did not realise when I first replied.Dont know if Roassal offers something similar for mophs, but since none said so already I will assume it does not. In any case moving Morphic to Athens will need quite an effort since there are so many morphs to port. I dont think your request is unreasonable. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean@clipperadams.com> wrote:
kilon.alios wrote
I dont get why we need zoomable and infinitable scrollable pasteupmorph,
I need an IDE that does not cram my self expression into a multi-paned browser. PasteUpMorph is an implementation detail that I'd be happy to upgrade if there's something better.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Zoomable-Infinitely-scrollable-PasteupMorph-tp4778229p... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Le 02/11/2014 16:29, Nicolai Hess a écrit :
2014-11-02 15:22 GMT+01:00 Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>>:
Le 02/11/2014 15:15, stepharo a écrit :
I gave up on zoomability (with the idea to revisit after Athens is integrated),
Athens is integrated. Now if the community does not help redefining the drawnOn: methods using athens then it will not happen.
And, speaking of infinite zoomability, you have a few surprises waiting for you in Athens :( (some are from Athens design, others may be linked to Cairo).
? What exactly?
(1) Precisions issues: Athens/Cairo seems only precise at 0.001 points in Roassal space (independently of the scaling of the canvas, i.e. even if you camera scaling is 10 pixels for 0.001). (2) Limits: if your Athens coordinates are over a certain number (around 1e7, I believe), Athens stop displaying things (independently of the scaling, again) (3) Athens design: the idea of having a stroke width of 1 has strange effects (polygons with scaling being 10 pixels wide, but with a border a 100 pixels wide: certainly not what you expect to see displayed) (1) means that you can't zoom to a meter/pixel resolution without errors on a earth map where your scale is at 1 in roassal / 1km at equator. (2) means that nothing will be displayed on your map of earth if your scale is at 1 in Roassal/1m on Earth (i.e., if you try to solve 1 by increasing your scale, then you may end up with nothing displayed). (3) is just plain annoying, because of (2). For normal Roassal use, doesn't matter except if your unlucky with your scaling. When you start to play with geo-referenced data with a meter resolution, you are sure to hit them. I did ;) Luckily, at that stage I knew I had proper projections and coordinate transforms, otherwise I would have lost a lot of time. Thierry
Do you think Roassal can replace Morphic at all?
No Stef
2014-09-16 20:07 GMT+04:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com <mailto:alexandre.bergel@me.com>>:
In the word âsubmorphâ there are two important parts. âsubâ and âmorphâ. Roassal support subelements, but only one morph is around, the trachel morph that contains all the drawing. Why staying in Morphic? Morphic does not scale well, does not have layout, and morphs are hardly composable with other morphs :-)
Cheers, Alexandre
On Sep 16, 2014, at 7:13 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean@clipperadams.com <mailto:sean@clipperadams.com>> wrote:
> On Sep 15, 2014, at 9:54 PM, "abergel [via Smalltalk]" <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Can you describe a bit more what you need? In Roassal, you do not have submorph, but do you really need them? > Yes, I want to create a Self-like world that is also zoomable, so you could say the whole purpose is to have submorphs ;) > Cheers, > Sean > > View this message in context: Re: Zoomable & Infinitely scrollable PasteupMorph > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
participants (10)
-
Alexandre Bergel -
Denis Kudriashov -
Dennis Schetinin -
kilon alios -
Nicolai Hess -
phil＠highoctane.be -
S Krish -
Sean P. DeNigris -
stepharo -
Thierry Goubier