Thierry you have done it !!! you just gave a very easy solution to my problems.

Yeap Slang is quite close to what I am thinking, unfortunately Clement told me to stay away from it because the code is ugly and specially used for VM only. If I remember also correctly it does not generate readable C code either. But the idea as a concept is very close to what I imagine.

As a matter of fact you mentioning Slang made�� I have an epiphany that I dont have to create a new syntax at all, instead I could use specific variables or methods to provide type annotation. Thus like Slang I can use regular Smalltalk code that avoids changing types but without the need for type inference (although I am not excluding this either).

So yes I am definetly want to move to the direction that Slang goes so I can fully utilise the Pharo IDE and minise code that I have to write.

So basically I am thinking write code as you always write in Pharo and either

a) Have special dictionary variables in each method that provide static type annotations for the arguments of the methods, its return type and local variables

b) Have special methods that provide such dictionaries seperately.

Or probably both. This way I can write 100% Smalltalk code and use a very small compiler to read those dictionary variables for the type of the variables and functions/structs (essentially a class will be output for a C struct with pointers to functions for methods and variables for instance variables). Why invent a whole new language when everything I need already Pharo provides ?

I could also use special variable dictionaries for all sort of things like generation of header files, generation of CMake files for automatic building.

Also I like to use the way UFFI is doing C function signatures by using symbol arrays.

So thank you all for inspiration it looks like all I need is Pharo AST methods (which I can from the AST packages) and SmaCC.

So yeap looks like Magnatar will be a new Slang afterall, I will keep you posted.

Also this also opens the possibility of autowrapping the generated c code back to Pharo through UFFI, so one can use C code as if its Pharo code. I can leverage the TalkFFI project that does this already. Seems all the pieces have fallen in their place.

Keep the suggestions and advice coming, you guys are inspirational :D

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 11:07 AM Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com> wrote:

Le mer. 17 oct. 2018 �� 08:44, Dimitris Chloupis
<kilon.alios@gmail.com> a ��crit :
>
> Those are interesting languages and probably better ideas than what I am thinking. However they are not what I am talking about.
>
> The language I am making is called "Magnatar"
>
> Magnatar is not Smalltalk, but it is a Smalltalk trojan horse.
>
> My main goals are
>
> 1) Create 100% readable C code, code that it looks like it was written by a person and not automatically generated , leaving no room for suspicion
> 2) Keep as close to Smalltalk as I can
> 3) Map to C syntax , one to one
> 4) Implement a loose variant of OOP
> 5) Powerful macro system for source manipulation without the need for header files
> 6) CMake integration (automate building which a headache in C/C++)
>
> Essentially I am trying to make a language that can allow a smalltalker to write C in Smalltalk and none noticing that he did. Hence why I talked about a trojan horse. I got the live coding part covered already but I would also like to use Pharo as the IDE of the language if I can. Also because of (3) Magnatar will be purely statically typed not because I have any love for static types but because it makes (3) far easier to accomplish. So Magnatar wont be a Smalltalk implementation neither a replacement for it.

I believe you're trying to rewrite SLANG...

Maybe you can reuse part of it.

Making a better SLANG would certainly help, in more areas than one!

Thierry
> This means also that Magnatar will be a way to extend Pharo on low level. Writting�� readable C using Smalltalky syntax for extensions instead of just writting in C and then using Pharo's UFFI. Of course this will benefit those that want to squeeze much more performance out of Pharo.

> Magnatar also is not another language trying to take over the world but a language I will use to write C code for a project I am working on which is 3d graphics and I need the full performance. So in the end it will be a personal language.
>
> Unfortunately this means no dynamic types at all, no GC , no VM, no bytecodes, not intepretation of any sort, no image format. The only thing I am keeping will be live coding. Also OOP will be basically super simple, only c structs and c functions with a small API to allow you to "compose" objects similarly to prototype based OOP but I am considering some syntax for basic classes also. Again all these are under the prime goal of 100% readable idiomatic C code. The rule is simple "if it cannot easily map to C , it wont get in". So this is a highly focused language.
>
> I have not found yet a language that compiles to readable C code although there a lot of them that compile to unreadable C (nim, ECL, chicken scheme, etc).
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 8:37 AM H. Hirzel <hannes.hirzel@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The successor of Ni is 'Spry'
>>
>> https://github.com/gokr/spry
>> http://sprylang.se/
>>
>> "Spry borrows homoiconicity from Rebol and Lisp, free form syntax from
>> Forth and Rebol, the word of different types from Rebol, good data
>> structure literal support from JavaScript and the general coding
>> experience and style from Smalltalk. It also has a few ideas of its
>> own, like an interesting argument passing mechanism and a relatively
>> novel take on OO."
>>
>> --Hannes
>>
>> On 10/17/18, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
>> > Have you looked at Ni?�� (I only read about it)
>> > http://goran.krampe.se/2015/09/16/ni-a-strange-little-language/
>> >
>> > cheers -ben
>> >
>> > On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 at 03:45, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Thank you Thierry , that was exactly what i was looking for :)
>> >>
>> >> On the subject of syntax, StrongTalk looks far more advanced compared to
>> >> what I am aiming which is basically writting C code with Smalltalk like
>> >> syntax. I am looking at this
>> >>
>> >> http://bracha.org/nwst.html
>> >>
>> >> Which describes some really impressive features. So I am aiming only for
>> >> source to source compiler and not implementation of complex systems for
>> >> incremental compilations , optional type system etc.
>> >>
>> >> On parsing strange code that is not much of an issue cause the project I
>> >> am working on has pretty reasonable code and will probably offer a way to
>> >> inline c code in case the parser fail. In any case my goals are small ,
>> >> cause I dont have resources for complex implementations. Its also a
>> >> language that will be designed solely for my needs and be offered open
>> >> source for anyone else that may find it useful. In any case I am sure I
>> >> will have many questions to ask :)
>> >>
>> >> I was looking into ANTLR , since the book I am reading on language design
>> >> is using ANTLR but I rather implement this in Pharo. I used SmaCC when I
>> >> was working for my Python bridge and I really liked it , mostly because
>> >> it
>> >> offers ready made syntax definitions for most popular languages. Which
>> >> makes my life a lot easier.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:45 PM Thierry Goubier
>> >> <thierry.goubier@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi Dimitris,
>> >>>
>> >>> Le 16/10/2018 �� 19:39, Dimitris Chloupis a ��crit :
>> >>> > yes i already said that i followed the instructions in the github repo
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes, by default that installation of SmaCC does not load all parsers
>> >>> (some of them are fairly large). However, most of them are in the
>> >>> downloaded repository, so you can load them independently.
>> >>>
>> >>> Otherwise, loading that way, should load everything:
>> >>>
>> >>> Metacello new
>> >>>�� baseline: 'SmaCC';
>> >>>�� repository: 'github://SmaCCRefactoring/SmaCC';
>> >>>�� load: #('Tools' 'Examples' 'Examples-Extra')
>> >>>
>> >>> Regarding your language question, I'd suggest two things:
>> >>>
>> >>> - Look at StrongTalk for a way to write Smalltalk with type
>> >>> declarations...
>> >>>
>> >>> - C parsers able to parse most strange C code one may encounter takes
>> >>> some work...
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards,
>> >>>
>> >>> Thierry
>> >>>
>> >>> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 8:18 PM H. Hirzel <hannes.hirzel@gmail.com
>> >>> > <mailto:hannes.hirzel@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >�� Refers to
>> >>> >�� https://github.com/SmaCCRefactoring/SmaCC
>> >>> >
>> >>> >�� which says
>> >>> >
>> >>> >�� This is the port for Smalltalk/Pharo 1.3, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >�� Installing a Development version of Pharo for the latest Pharo
>> >>> > (with
>> >>> >�� no guarantees):
>> >>> >
>> >>> >�� Metacello new
>> >>> >�� baseline: 'SmaCC';
>> >>> >�� repository: 'github://SmaCCRefactoring/SmaCC';
>> >>> >�� load
>> >>> >
>> >>> >�� On 10/16/18, H. Hirzel <hannes.hirzel@gmail.com
>> >>> >�� <mailto:hannes.hirzel@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >>> >�� > What about trying
>> >>> >�� >
>> >>> >�� >
>> >>> >�� >�� Metacello new
>> >>> >�� >�� baseline: 'SmaCC';
>> >>> >�� >�� repository: 'github://ThierryGoubier/SmaCC';
>> >>> >�� >�� load
>> >>> >�� >
>> >>> >�� > This worked in Pharo 6.1 in November 2017
>> >>> >�� >
>> >>> >�� > On 10/16/18, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com
>> >>> >�� <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >>> >�� >> thanks for the info Peter , will give it a try :)
>> >>> >�� >>
>> >>> >�� >> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:35 PM PBKResearch
>> >>> >�� <peter@pbkresearch.co.uk <mailto:peter@pbkresearch.co.uk>>
>> >>> >�� >> wrote:
>> >>> >�� >>
>> >>> >�� >>> Dimitris
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>> If you download the latest Moose Suite 6.1, you will have
>> >>> > Pharo
>> >>> >�� 6.1 with
>> >>> >�� >>> lots of extra packages, including SmaCC. The SmaCC includes
>> >>> >�� compilers
>> >>> >�� >>> for
>> >>> >�� >>> C, Smalltalk and Java, among others, but with little or no
>> >>> >�� >>> documentation.
>> >>> >�� >>> I
>> >>> >�� >>> am not a SmaCC expert, so I can��t say whether it will do what
>> >>> >�� you want,
>> >>> >�� >>> but
>> >>> >�� >>> at least it will give you a start. Moose also includes
>> >>> >�� PetitParser and
>> >>> >�� >>> PP2,if you want to try other parsing approaches. Of course,
>> >>> > the
>> >>> >�� Windows
>> >>> >�� >>> version is 32-bit only, for reasons explained elsewhere in
>> >>> > this
>> >>> >�� thread.
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>> HTH
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>> Peter Kenny
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>> *From:* Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org
>> >>> >�� <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org>> *On Behalf Of
>> >>> >�� >>> *Dimitris
>> >>> >�� >>> Chloupis
>> >>> >�� >>> *Sent:* 16 October 2018 15:40
>> >>> >�� >>> *To:* Any question about pharo is welcome
>> >>> >�� <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>>
>> >>> >�� >>> *Subject:* [Pharo-users] Installing SmaCC
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>> Hey guys
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>> I downloaded the latest Pharo 6.1 64bit for Windows and tried
>> >>> >�� to install
>> >>> >�� >>> SmaCC through the catalog browser but it failed
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>> I did manage to install it following the instruction in the
>> >>> >�� github repo
>> >>> >�� >>> but I see that I am missing most parser packages.
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>> The languages I am interested are Smalltalk (which is
>> >>> > included)
>> >>> >�� and C
>> >>> >�� >>> (if
>> >>> >�� >>> possible C++ too) cause I will be creating a new language
>> >>> > which
>> >>> >�� will be
>> >>> >�� >>> a
>> >>> >�� >>> cross between C and Smalltalk (very similar to smalltalk
>> >>> > syntax
>> >>> >�� but with
>> >>> >�� >>> the addtion of C types and no GC and dynamic typing and also
>> >>> > a
>> >>> >�� partial
>> >>> >�� >>> implementation of OOP that is quite diffirent). My goal is
>> >>> >�� compilation
>> >>> >�� >>> of
>> >>> >�� >>> my language to readable C code so the ability to parse also
>> >>> >�� existing C
>> >>> >�� >>> code
>> >>> >�� >>> is needed.
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>> Any help is greatly appreciated , thanks :)
>> >>> >�� >>>
>> >>> >�� >>
>> >>> >�� >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >
>>