As you are not biased to understand what I was saying can you please define what ���stability��� means to you? 

After all those years I���m fed up with people using terms like ���stability��� or ���scability��� as if the were self-explaining. The same goes for ���enterprise needs���. They are not, they are defined within the scope if their requirements. 

I have more than 100 pharo images running and these are pretty stable. Why? Because pharo is stable enough and I am capable of doing the rest to make it right for my needs.

On the other hand if I were into writing UI based tools I know there will be a lot of changes in the coming years. So nothing to expect regarding stability.

If you work in an enterprise your definition of stability can be defined as static/non-moving stability. It just means you don���t have to cope with everyday changes but the gap of your software to actual software gets bigger every day. And with every day it is more unlikely someone is brave enough to decide to move on and to catch up with the rest. 

etc. etc.

Norbert

Am 06.05.2018 um 21:16 schrieb Todd Blanchard <tblanchard@mac.com>:

OK, I have to push back at this.

When Pharo forked I was excited because Squeak was such a fast moving lab experiment that you couldn't build anything and expect it to work in a year.

Pharo was supposed to be the "business ready" fork leaving Squeak to be the crazy lab experiment.

From https://pharo.org/about

It says:

Pharo's goal is to deliver a clean, innovative, free and open-source immersive environment. 

By providing a stable and small core system, excellent developing tools, and maintained releases, Pharo is an attractive platform to build and deploy mission critical applications.

But you are telling me that Pharo is also a fast moving lab experiment that is too unstable for real work?

I understand this is hard but is there a definitive roadmap and plan to reach to stability?

On May 6, 2018, at 4:00 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:

Can you elaborate on what you consider as a kernel? There are always things moving in the pharo world. The last years the virtual machine got some iterations and it is still not fully stable. For pharo it is hard to have it stable because we feel the need that a lot of the existing parts need to be replaced to be useful in these times. Furthermore pharo is also prototyping platform for programming language features. All of these are counter-stability measures. So if you need a stable kernel from native ground up to UI pharo won���t be that thing you are looking for the coming years (if at all). You always need to adopt to change so you need to define your required scope better in order to get an estimate.

Norbert

Am 06.05.2018 um 11:31 schrieb Trygve Reenskaug <trygver@ifi.uio.no>:

I'm working on a programing paradigm and IDE for the personal programmer who wants to control his or her IoT. The size of the target audience I have in mind is >100 million. I gave up Squeak long ago as a platform because they obsolete my code faster than I can write it.  I have now frozen Squeak 3.10.2 and hope its runtime will survive until I find a better foundation. My hope is that Pharo has a stable kernel that I can build on.  According to Stephan, this is not so. Is there any plan for creating a stable Pharo kernel that people can use for building software of lasting value for millions of non-expert users? 
--Thanks, Trygve

On 05.05.2018 13:53, Stephan Eggermont wrote:
I���ve taken a look at what would be needed to
support magma on pharo a few years ago. Chris always told us he uses it
professionally on squeak and has not enough capacity to keep up with
changes in pharo without having a customer/maintainer for it. Twice a year
or so someone asks about magma on pharo and takes a look. AFAIK there are
no real obstacles to a port, but magma uses a lot of deep implementation
specifics that will take an experienced smalltalker to deal with, and a lot
of mailing list archeology as pharo changed a lot since magma worked on
pharo last

Stephan

-- 
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