The dicussion is about Pharo's live coding and OOP compared to other languages.��

IF you look at all my threads you will see I ALWAYS mention Python , Blender , Unreal for relevant topics. I do not remember hi jackig a thread with random remarks just for the shake of mentioning those things.

Plus 99% of the times I mention Python is about Atlas , my library for using Python libraries from inside Pharo.�� Atlas is a "trojan horse" for Pharo to invade Python projects.��

Also I have been very clear that I consider C++ an abomination syntax wise and Python weaker than Smalltalk, language wise.Mainly because of Smalltalk's minimal syntax and of course offering live coding outside the box with no special setup from the coder.

My point is that indeed you can do with EASE live coding in a numerous languages, at least to my experience. I have tried only Python and C/C++. Is it as easy or as flexible as Pharo ? I do not know because live coding as you know is about workflow and we dont code all the same way. For example I was never comfortable with coding solely from inside Pharo debugger as some of you are doing. I am more a Class Browser guy and I rarely use Workspace/Playground/REPL as well.��

My questions were sincere even though I was sarcastic because I always want to learn more about live coding and things I do not know about OOP. My sarcasm was an effort to be funny not to be rude.����

I am also certain that many experienced coders coming from other language will ask the same questions as well. What Pharo can give me OO wise that I cannot get in my X language ?�� What exactly is live coding for Pharo ? Is doing X things in that Y language live coding or is it something else ? What's the real purpose of message passing ? How it benefits me compared to just using method calls ?��

I am suprised that there has not been an article about live coding workflows. I think it could greatly benefit Pharo to demostrate its uniqueness.��

People prefer to be shown that something is better than being told.��

Most people also not bother at all coming to the mailing list and ask questions, they will�� ignore things they dont understand and carry on.��

So its not important to say that Pharo special but why Pharo is special and after 5 year I feel will still struggle in this area, not because of the fault of the community but because live coding and OOP can be an extremely wide field that you can easily get lost into.��

We have also to be fair with othe programming languages, respect them, to the degree they deserve our respect and not exaggerate our claims because that harms Pharo reputation.��

On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 11:50 AM Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
Your contribution to Pharo are much appreciated. And indeed you did not directly say anything negative.

But you have to agree that you often discuss about Python, C++, Blender, ... in mailing lists that are not for that purpose. You are absolutely free to do whatever you want and to give your opinions freely, but this is not the right place.

> On 7 Oct 2017, at 10:42, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I agree, ignore that crazy dude that he is all talk and non sense excluding the fact the original article uses a graphic he made with love for Pharo and with over 5 years of active contribution to Pharo documentation and libraries. OR the fact that he said nothing negative about Pharo in this thread.
>
> Or the fact that he said that is enternal greatful for Pharo introducing him to the art and fun of live coding. What's more negative than that , right ?
>
> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 11:14 AM Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi sven
>
> Do the same than me, trash this thread and let us focus on making Pharo better.
> This is far better productive and energy positive.
>
> Stef
>
> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 12:16 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
> > Yes, you are right: Pharo/Smalltalk is more or less the same as Ruby/Python/C/C++ in terms of power & flexibility of OOP and in live coding.
> >
> > Come on.
> >
> >> On 6 Oct 2017, at 23:18, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Wise not to mention Ruby and Python and Pick the worst of the worst in OOP. Because frankly the competition for Pharo against those two behemoths can be quite brutal in the flexibility and power of OOP.
> >>
> >> And no , these language can do live coding with ease. I know because I currently code live coding style with Python for an app I am making. Sure it wont provide you with a live system out of the box, but put in 10 lines of code and you already ready to go with hardcore live coding. At least Python , Ruby being practically a rip off of Smalltalk language may need even less.
> >>
> >> iPython which by the way is by far the most popular Python tool is the real deal, a full blow live coding enviroment.
> >>
> >> To my suprise its not even hard to do live coding with C/C++ including using image format. To my shock live coding is actually supported by both the OS and the hardware. Hardware has its own exception system , OS has an image flie format called "memory mapped files" used for DLLs and a lot of essential functionality.
> >>
> >> For some weird reason however its well hidden and not that much utilised by coders. They really love long compile times, dont ask me why.
> >>
> >> But yeah C++ even though it has come a long way with its template system, its still the king of ugly. That sytax, oh the horrors of that syntax..... yiaks !!!
> >>
> >> I am so enternal greatful that Pharo introduced me to live coding and opened my eyes to universe of fun and productivity. I cannot imagine coding an other way ever again.
> >>
> >> I really hope that we take this further though.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:31 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk
> >> <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/behold-pharo-the-modern-smalltalk-38e132c46053>
> >>
> >> If you would like to suggest some edits, I'm all ears. Anything to improve
> >> the impact of the article.
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
> >>
> >
> >
>