On 14/01/17 09:14, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:

[...]

��

Remember we have to compete with languages like Ruby and Python .

[...]

And in the live coding and moldability camp the competition goes pretty well (Ruby has Sonic Pi, Python has Jupyter, for other audience, but none of those are as moldable as Pharo or bring so much liveness to coding, and not all competition is for the soul and heart of developers, there is a wider world were we can offer a pretty interesting value proposal

��

��

So basically the mentality here is "give me Iceberg so I do not have to learn Git or work like Git" , yeah good luck with that one.

I am not against Iceberg but I am sure it will be used as an excuse , like with many other things to bash Git and other non-Smalltalk technologies, each time it fails.

I agree with not having git in front. So yes, I will wait for Iceberg and will use StHub as much as I can. I share that Smalltalk and Pharo need to be less insular, by supporting external technologies and formats (git, markdown, etc), but the experience should be as smooth as possible and we need ways to map the live coding experience to that external world.

I am trying to avoid having this kind of discussions but on the other hand I do not think all this denial is a good thing for Pharo.

Another thing I like to stress here, is that your goal to create a self contained enviroment fully implemented in Smalltalk sorry I meant Pharo, will not happens.

Gone are the times of 70, 80s and even 90s that a simple GUI could cut it. Nowdays a modern coder uses a vast array of tools at his arsenal because coding has become very complex to accomodate the high expectations of modern users. We do not have the time, the money or the community to build a tool that can compete on equal terms with the ocean of tools that exist out there.

I don't know if denial is the proper world. I have said before I do not want become part of a holy war anytime someone mentions a DVCS that is not git or markup that is no pillar and so on, but I think that we, as a community are getting better at increasing diversity, despite of our own passion for some technologies. I don't think that the proper way is fully implementing all in Smalltalk, but "internalizing" the environment in the language as much as we can (in a similar way to Racket people). FileSystem or ZipArchive are a good examples of how to talk with the environment while being inside Pharo making the OS invisible for the user and with a smoother experience. "Internalizing" the environment in the language is the key to keep community and technologies diverse, while keeping the fluid experience of live coding in Pharo.

Cheers,

Offray

People do not use Git because they cannot use far simpler VCS , of course not. They use because they know that projects grow and demands changes and the time comes that they wish they have picked Git in the first place because the more the project grows the more difficult it becomes to switch VCS.