VA (VisualAge) for C++ and for Java were two IBM products, the latter being the predecessor to Eclipse. They were both available on OS/2 and Windows NT variants (2000 mainly), and the C++ version on AIX. Whichever platform the C++ version was run on, you could target any supported runtime platform. They were all (along with VisualAge Smalltalk, now maintained and sold by Instantiations and currently at version 9.0, and VisualAge Generator - a Cobol version) written in IBM Smalltalk.

I still use VA C++, Java, and occasionally VA Smalltalk, albeit the latter at v. 6.02, in a VM running OS/2 (well, Ecomstation, but it's the same as OS/2 4.5, just updated for more recent hardware - interestingly Arca Noae released a version 5.0, the first official (i.e. called OS/2 version since 2004, in June of this year). ��

I use them for prototyping and quickly creating cross-VM client/server apps that allow me to generate virtual network traffic without using tons of memory for each VM (much of what I do involves monitoring network protocols such as BGP, and without traffic to exercise the virtualized aggregated service routers, I can't demonstrate the code without carrying 6 75lb servers on my back). ��

I can run Lotus Domino plus 10-12 server apps written in VA C++ in a VM with one or two vCPU's and 256MB RAM. On the client, I can run a couple dozen Java clients, connecting either to the C++ servers or Domino, in 128MB. I put a screenshot of the CPP and Java versions below.

For Smalltalk code, Pharo is better than VA, certainly better than the 6.02 version, but for C++ or Java, as long as you don't mind prototyping in an old Java version (lacking the syntactic parmesan, mainly), they're still better than anything else. Both incrementally compile/precompile in-memory on save the way ST does, but that's fairly rare in C++. Both have ways of writing arbitrary test code similar to a playground, which is also rare in either language. Both also have data access libraries that are far faster and easier to use than JPA, never mind CMP. VA Java also includes an ancient version of WebSphere for J2EE.

CORBA��(Common Object Request Broker Architecture) is a complex way of exchanging objects/data between languages. I've seen interviewers who are/were developers actually shake if I mention it. However both the C++ and Java versions handled most of the details without any fuss.

All the build/deploy tooling was in the environment. With the app I mentioned, lacking those environments it's maybe not impossible, but likely at least close to 'infinitely improbable' to get the thing built properly, never mind actually change the code and configs. The junior developer from that project is a friend of mine's little brother, he's still at the company that paid to have it built, and it's now 15 years later, just so it will keep running. Ironically he was fresh out of school at the time and basically worked as a gopher, he didn't write or even debug a line of code. After we finished the project I taught him how to modify/build it using those tools, and they're still the only thing he can use.

cheers

Andrew

-----Original Message-----

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 07:26:13 +0000

Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"

To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>

Reply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>

From: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com>

What is a VA Java ? and a VA C++ ?��

Call me an idiot or insane but I am in favor of combiding languages, though I only have heard of COBRA never used it.��

I am a lawyer by profession, I know fellow lawyers still using DOS and QBasic databases and yes under windows ...... sadly very common for businesses here. Ah the pleasures of technology but nothing comes close to the pleasure of rejecting it.��

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 12:49 AM Andrew Glynn <aglynn42@gmail.com> wrote:

I know about personalization being a lot of work, particularly with Eclipse.�� I copied the text out of the ���summary��� page in About Eclipse into Kate, and it was 1233 lines long, lol.��

��

I was one of two team leads on what was probably the most complex application I���ve worked on, using VA Java and VA C++ with CORBA to exchange objects (the need to combine both was due to legacy issues).�� Siemens now owns the application, which was successful enough to bankrupt its closest competitor, but the binary jars in the latest version are still dated 2002, and every addition has been made via .the WS* API we included, which if I remember correctly, uses version 1.x of WebSphere.�� I���m a bit surprised it still runs at all tbh, but its security must be horrible by now.

��

Eclipse���s only saving grace is EMF/CDO, and a few projects built on them, IMHO.

��

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

��

From: Dimitris Chloupis
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 2:05 PM
To: Any question about pharo is welcome
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"

��

It's a mentality issue, modern programming languages provide the material necessary to create innovative environments but their communities just simply does not care. A language designer may introduce a feature in a language that is super useful. Still people may not use it.��

��

And let's face it even with Pharo nothing beats a personalized environment, of course personalisation is a lot of work. Hence why people avoid it.����

��

Essentially boiling down to cooking your own food instead of getting it from a shop. When you begin to learn how to cook , its kinda sucks, but the more you cook the better it tastes. Of course it takes time to get there and hence why so few people cook.��

��

Eclispe , which I will disagree with your that is not the worst IDE, started as a smalltalk IDE and then it got Eclipsed. I am sure those people had a "build on" environment , still it got messy. We can blame porting to Java, but can we really blame Java for the mess that is called "Eclipse".... ehhhh.... nope.��

��

I once saw a youtube video about a musician using windows sounds (the standard sounds we all know of) to make�� a very nice music piece. He did all that using multiple instances of windows media player. Just pause reading think about this for a minute. That's the real essence of creativity

��

Use something very limited and come up with something amazing. The software industry is not about creativity for the most part. On the other hand I that work with 3d its amazing how fast super cool new technologies pop around like mushrooms. Every year we have massive improvements in libraries and tools. But the coding for 3d graphics is all about creativity , artists are not very forgiving for ugly GUI, limited features and innovation stagnation. Artists want to be inspired by the tools they use. But then that's the creativity realm. Creativity pays the bills in this case, lack of it , game is not fun, rendering or animation is not fun, you can lose millions.��

��

Of course in the creativity realm , there is too much innovation and unless you keep up you are kicked out the door, yesterday. Which brings down to the problem of complexity and how you deal with it. And I don't mean about bad complexity , aka web dev, I am talking about good complexity. Features you cannot ignore because other will use before you and you are left behind etc.��

��

��

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 7:13 PM Peter Fisk <peter.fisk@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for posting this.

��

It is one of the best descriptions of the state of the software industry that I have seen.

��

��

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42@gmail.com> wrote:

https://medium.com/@dasein42/building-with-versus-building-on-c51aa3034c71

��

This is an article not specifically about Pharo, rather on the state of the industry
in general and how it got that way, but positing Pharo as a way to learn
building-on rather than building-with, where in the latter case on
every project you start at essentially the same place.�� 

��

As a result it does put in front of people a fair amount of info on Pharo, and challenges them to try it.

��

cheers

Andrew Glynn

��

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