[Pharo-project] Author in Squeak (Thread moved over from smallwiki)
stéphane ducasse wrote:
Apparently there is no value in what we are doing: I didn't say that, is that what you believe? removing etoy, removing a lot of ***SHIT*** from squeak, fixing tons of bugs (the bug archives is full of fixed bugs and fixes problems), writing more tests, cleaning a HUGE spaghetti mess (preferences....). Utilities is one of this crap. Not much use to me I am afraid, if my code cant work interoperably between squeak and pharo, then I cant port any of my existing projects over.
Hmm what is needed for this... oh yes Installing and package loading tools that are managed outside of any one image as a common resource for everyone, that all those wise and knowledgeable about such things should contribute to. This needs political will to promote collaboration at this level. The problem with this idea is that I myself am not good enough nor do I have the time to realise the vision. I wonder where the people that do have the knowledge to do this are. Oh yes they are all working on Pharo! So that leaves the rest of us scuppered, thanks... You still don't understand, my argument against pharo is NOT that you will not use my code, it is that you will NOT contribute resources to the community in such a way as can be used for the benefit of all. i.e. MC1.5 is a project outside of Pharo and Squeak that you could contribute to, but you wont. So is SUnit, and SSpec etc. Furthermore those projects may be doomed to failure if you dont contribute, after all your team has the knowledge of traits which no one else has, I certainly don't. MC1.5 needs your team's input, and has needed it for over a year, yet you will not see it as something worth contributing to for the benefit of all. So MC1.5 is dead in the water and 2 years of work has been wasted.
And of course Author could be made a bit better. Author, what is Author, Author doesn't exist for Squeak users.
If you would think in a community minded way, Author would be another external package, that is available for all.
Of course there is no preference to avoid to warn on deprecated call!
Apparently you only do stuff right. Perfect! I didn't say that, is this what you believe?
I am saying the opposite, and I have always been saying the opposite. I need others to collaborate to make these ideas a success. I am primarily an ideas man, my code is not that brilliant until the third or fourth iteration. My concern is that the Pharo team continuously seek to compete not to contribute.
But we will do it our way. Period. Exactly the opposite attitude to what is needed in this situation. No wonder we are not getting anywhere.
Keith
2009/5/5 Keith Hodges <keith_hodges@yahoo.co.uk>:
stéphane ducasse wrote:
Apparently there is no value in what we are doing: I didn't say that, is that what you believe? removing etoy, removing a lot of ***SHIT*** from squeak, fixing tons of bugs (the bug archives is full of fixed bugs and fixes problems), writing more tests, cleaning a HUGE spaghetti mess (preferences....). Utilities is one of this crap. Not much use to me I am afraid, if my code cant work interoperably between squeak and pharo, then I cant port any of my existing projects over.
Hmm what is needed for this... oh yes
Installing and package loading tools that are managed outside of any one image as a common resource for everyone, that all those wise and knowledgeable about such things should contribute to. This needs political will to promote collaboration at this level.
The problem with this idea is that I myself am not good enough nor do I have the time to realise the vision. I wonder where the people that do have the knowledge to do this are. Oh yes they are all working on Pharo! So that leaves the rest of us scuppered, thanks...
You still don't understand, my argument against pharo is NOT that you will not use my code, it is that you will NOT contribute resources to the community in such a way as can be used for the benefit of all. i.e. MC1.5 is a project outside of Pharo and Squeak that you could contribute to, but you wont. So is SUnit, and SSpec etc. Furthermore those projects may be doomed to failure if you dont contribute, after all your team has the knowledge of traits which no one else has, I certainly don't. MC1.5 needs your team's input, and has needed it for over a year, yet you will not see it as something worth contributing to for the benefit of all. So MC1.5 is dead in the water and 2 years of work has been wasted.
And of course Author could be made a bit better. Author, what is Author, Author doesn't exist for Squeak users.
If you would think in a community minded way, Author would be another external package, that is available for all.
Of course there is no preference to avoid to warn on deprecated call!
Apparently you only do stuff right. Perfect! I didn't say that, is this what you believe?
I am saying the opposite, and I have always been saying the opposite. I need others to collaborate to make these ideas a success. I am primarily an ideas man, my code is not that brilliant until the third or fourth iteration.
Neither do i. I learn from my mistakes, trying to learn from other's mistakes.
My concern is that the Pharo team continuously seek to compete not to contribute.
But we will do it our way. Period. Exactly the opposite attitude to what is needed in this situation. No wonder we are not getting anywhere.
Keith, IMO, its too early to say that Pharo team is not contributing. People making things as they get used to. And who you are (or me, or anyone else) to have a right to dictate them how to do it? Getting in the middle of process and pointing that they doing it wrong is not a good tone. Let us wait for release, when we could have a pieces of code which is stabilized. Only then we could think about porting/contributing etc. And only then you can point to wrong/bad things, but not now :)
Keith
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-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
My impression. This is a bunch of whining. I am not trying to be imflamatory but that is my impression. For my part, I don't care two dead flies about compatibility with squeak. I am very happy that a bunch of very bright and motivated individuals are working hard to produce a stable open source smalltalk that can be used for Professional development. Keith Hodges wrote:
stéphane ducasse wrote:
Apparently there is no value in what we are doing: I didn't say that, is that what you believe? removing etoy, removing a lot of ***SHIT*** from squeak, fixing tons of bugs (the bug archives is full of fixed bugs and fixes problems), writing more tests, cleaning a HUGE spaghetti mess (preferences....). Utilities is one of this crap. Not much use to me I am afraid, if my code cant work interoperably between squeak and pharo, then I cant port any of my existing projects over.
Hmm what is needed for this... oh yes
Installing and package loading tools that are managed outside of any one image as a common resource for everyone, that all those wise and knowledgeable about such things should contribute to. This needs political will to promote collaboration at this level.
The problem with this idea is that I myself am not good enough nor do I have the time to realise the vision. I wonder where the people that do have the knowledge to do this are. Oh yes they are all working on Pharo! So that leaves the rest of us scuppered, thanks...
You still don't understand, my argument against pharo is NOT that you will not use my code, it is that you will NOT contribute resources to the community in such a way as can be used for the benefit of all. i.e. MC1.5 is a project outside of Pharo and Squeak that you could contribute to, but you wont. So is SUnit, and SSpec etc. Furthermore those projects may be doomed to failure if you dont contribute, after all your team has the knowledge of traits which no one else has, I certainly don't. MC1.5 needs your team's input, and has needed it for over a year, yet you will not see it as something worth contributing to for the benefit of all. So MC1.5 is dead in the water and 2 years of work has been wasted.
And of course Author could be made a bit better. Author, what is Author, Author doesn't exist for Squeak users.
If you would think in a community minded way, Author would be another external package, that is available for all.
Of course there is no preference to avoid to warn on deprecated call!
Apparently you only do stuff right. Perfect! I didn't say that, is this what you believe?
I am saying the opposite, and I have always been saying the opposite. I need others to collaborate to make these ideas a success. I am primarily an ideas man, my code is not that brilliant until the third or fourth iteration. My concern is that the Pharo team continuously seek to compete not to contribute.
But we will do it our way. Period. Exactly the opposite attitude to what is needed in this situation. No wonder we are not getting anywhere.
Keith
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participants (3)
-
Igor Stasenko -
Keith Hodges -
MichaelA