On 10 February 2014 22:52, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Göran, Hi Gilad, Hi All,

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Göran Krampe <goran@krampe.se> wrote:

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Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers!

Cross-posting continues...

On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote:

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I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair.

Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here)

I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was

...

*explicitly asked to participate*. I myself noted that Newspeak is

sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family.

Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even share the VM!

And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through Newspeakish money, right?

Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed or reliable.

I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep.

I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not (clearly it is). The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk projects under ESUG umbrella? If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors, who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects.

...

[SNIP]

I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the

...

recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community (you know who you are) and will continue to do so.

Cool!

The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other communities (or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our community.

This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can really... make a mess :)

3 timesRepeat: [ If you do though - *that* would be the true mark of leaders]

regards, Göran

PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest his soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! Move on, have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now back to hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha!

Amen! Eliot

_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Hi Igor and all! On 02/10/2014 11:56 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: [SNIP]

Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even share the VM!

And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through Newspeakish money, right?

Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed or reliable.

I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep.

I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not (clearly it is). The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk projects under ESUG umbrella?

Well, first of all I was actually *not* talking about that particular incident (whatever took place, I have no idea) - my mistake to not make that clear - I merely wanted to note that we should stick together as a family *in general*. Gilad should really feel that IMHO. Nevertheless just like Dennis noted - Pharo doesn't start with an "S" - hell, it even uses the phrase "Smalltalk inspired" to distance itself and make clear that hey, this is not a Smalltalk! And Pharo has Traits so is it "Smalltalk"? :) Amber doesn't even have globals (!) so is Amber "a Smalltalk"? And the fact that Newspeak actually *shares the VM* with Pharo and Squeak - that indicates a pretty strong connection, don't you think? Much stronger than Amber many would argue... And oh, Amber actually *claims* to be a Smalltalk ;) On the other hand it wants to be compatible with Pharo which claims to be only "inspired"... oh, darnit! Just kidding (well, 50% serious perhaps) Igor, I get what you mean, just getting a bit philosophical here, I haven't had my morning coffee... :)

If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors, who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects.

Hehe, ok, PHP is NOT a Smalltalk. ;) regards, Göran PS. I am hacking on protobuf in Pharo 3.0 and noticed cool NB assembler in some places - are such methods creeping into base libraries now? What does that mean for other CPUs? Sorry, for changing subject - feel free to reply under different subject.

On 11 February 2014 10:56, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

...

PS. I am hacking on protobuf in Pharo 3.0 and noticed cool NB assembler

in some places - are such methods creeping into base libraries now? What does that mean for other CPUs? Sorry, for changing subject - feel free to reply under different subject.

Hi Goran,

Yes… since NB and Athens, there are some methods in assembler spread around. Is my opinion that all assembler-containing methods should be refactored into a more comprensible unit (and that can be changed by another set of assembly instrucction when we achieve multiplatform-NB). Today they are all along Athens, and if we continue this path they will be all along Pharo soon. I would better modularise that. But Igor maybe has something different to say :)

Esteban

not much to add to what i already been said: - have any other CPU which can run pharo JIT? No? Will talk when it will be available. Doing anything before that is just waste of time. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

On 11 Feb 2014, at 20:08, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Igor,

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 7:16 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:

On 11 February 2014 10:56, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:

...

PS. I am hacking on protobuf in Pharo 3.0 and noticed cool NB assembler in some places - are such methods creeping into base libraries now? What does that mean for other CPUs? Sorry, for changing subject - feel free to reply under different subject.

Hi Goran,

Yes… since NB and Athens, there are some methods in assembler spread around. Is my opinion that all assembler-containing methods should be refactored into a more comprensible unit (and that can be changed by another set of assembly instrucction when we achieve multiplatform-NB). Today they are all along Athens, and if we continue this path they will be all along Pharo soon. I would better modularise that. But Igor maybe has something different to say :)

Esteban

not much to add to what i already been said: - have any other CPU which can run pharo JIT? No? Will talk when it will be available.

There's an unfortunate chicken-and-egg problem here. The way we develop a new platform with Cog is to build a simulator for the CPU and run the VM simulator above the CPU simulator. But, by making Pharo non-portable because NB only works on x86 you've made it extremely difficult to use a Pharo image to develop the new platform. That will be really important when x86-64 comes into the picture, which it shoudl sometime later this year. In fact its worse. Because there is no simulator support for NB I can't even start up a Pharo image on the current simulator and that's directly affecting my ability to sup[port Clément in the Sista work. Note that we already have an ARM simulator and unfortunately Pharo can't run on that simulator either. Some way of making NB get out of the way except on x86 until it is portable would be much appreciated.

Eliot, I made NB optional in Pharo3… you should not have problems (from that side) to simulate the image. But I’m also willing to help in anything else that is needed. Just point me your problem and I will try to solve it :) Esteban

Doing anything before that is just waste of time.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

-- best, Eliot

On 11 February 2014 10:07, Göran Krampe <goran@krampe.se> wrote:

Hi Igor and all!

On 02/10/2014 11:56 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: [SNIP]

Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell,

...

we even share the VM!

And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through Newspeakish money, right?

Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed or reliable.

I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep.

I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not (clearly it is). The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk projects under ESUG umbrella?

Well, first of all I was actually *not* talking about that particular incident (whatever took place, I have no idea) - my mistake to not make that clear - I merely wanted to note that we should stick together as a family *in general*. Gilad should really feel that IMHO.

Nevertheless just like Dennis noted - Pharo doesn't start with an "S" - hell, it even uses the phrase "Smalltalk inspired" to distance itself and make clear that hey, this is not a Smalltalk!

And Pharo has Traits so is it "Smalltalk"? :) Amber doesn't even have globals (!) so is Amber "a Smalltalk"?

And the fact that Newspeak actually *shares the VM* with Pharo and Squeak - that indicates a pretty strong connection, don't you think? Much stronger than Amber many would argue... And oh, Amber actually *claims* to be a Smalltalk ;) On the other hand it wants to be compatible with Pharo which claims to be only "inspired"... oh, darnit!

Just kidding (well, 50% serious perhaps) Igor, I get what you mean, just getting a bit philosophical here, I haven't had my morning coffee... :)

Nothing philosophical here. Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new language. Different syntax, different semantics. The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any difference. There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms. Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'? And let me be clear: i am not against Newspeak or any other language or person(s) who invested a lot into it and keep investing. They are doing good things in exploring and pushing forward original ideas and enriching our computing world. But as to me it is clear example, where ESUG should draw a line. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.